Should Bayern Have Been DQ'd In The BC Classic?

[Man o Taz]

Many pundits and others are saying that Bayern should have been disqualified in the BC Classic.

Personally, I do not think so. There are two reasons for this. First, Bayern's actions did come at the start of the race and my understanding of the rules is that you cannot penalize a horse for what happens shortly after the break because it is impossible to control when you are dealing with thoroughbreds UNLESS you can prove that the jockey acted intentionally which is impossible to prove unless you have audio of the jockey or trainer giving such instructions or confessing. Plenty of incidents happen at the start of a race - Lookin at Lucky was hurt at the start of the Derby.

The second reason that Bayern should not have been disqualified was because his actions did not compromise Shared Belief's chances as Mike Smith indicated. I believe Shared Belief's chances were compromised in the stretch passing the grandstand for the first time when Smith had to pull up Shared Belief after being checked hard by the massive Toast of New York. Thus, if Bayern comes down so does Toast of New York in my opinion which would have meant putting up the 3rd and not 2nd place horse which would have created pandemonium and threatened the integrity of the sport more than leaving Bayern up did. .

Now, others suggest that the outcome of the race was changed at the break because VE Day, Tonalist and Moreno were compromised. Well, as noted, other horses have been compromised at the start of races without a foul being entered. Its the nature of horse racing.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-santa-anita-bayern-decision-20141102-story.html
http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/11806565/bayern-disqualified
http://www.drf.com/news/beyer-stewards-made-right-call-classic-bayern-deserving-champ
http://www.horseracingnation.com/blogs/derbywars/Routinely_Disgraceful_123

What do you think?

[peeptoad]

On the one hand Bayern clearly interfered with a number of horses at the break, and that is "during the running of the race" since the race begins once the gates open.
Shared Belief clearly had trouble (as did Moreno) during the race, although I think it's debatable that the incident at the start alone actually cost him the race. I agree the trouble going past the stands first time was significant, plus SB got bumped on the back side. It was a rough trip all around for him, which is a shame since he didn't really get fair shake and this was not a gauge of his true ability.

I have two questions:
If the race had been a 6F sprint do you think Bayern would have been DQed?
If the race happened to be a stakes race on an average weekend (i.e. not the BC) do you think he would have been DQed?

If the answer is yes to either, then he should have been DQed on Saturday.
IMO he should have come down, but I am absolutely not surprised that he didn't given the prominence of the race and some of the other factors involved.

[Delamont]

Many pundits and others are saying that Bayern should have been disqualified in the BC Classic.

Personally, I do not think so. There are two reasons for this. First, Bayern's actions did come at the start of the race and my understanding of the rules is that you cannot penalize a horse for what happens shortly after the break because it is impossible to control when you are dealing with thoroughbreds UNLESS you can prove that the jockey acted intentionally which is impossible to prove unless you have audio of the jockey or trainer giving such instructions or confessing. Plenty of incidents happen at the start of a race - Lookin at Lucky was hurt at the start of the Derby.

The second reason that Bayern should not have been disqualified was because his actions did not compromise Shared Belief's chances as Mike Smith indicated. I believe Shared Belief's chances were compromised in the stretch passing the grandstand for the first time when Smith had to pull up Shared Belief after being checked hard by the massive Toast of New York. Thus, if Bayern comes down so does Toast of New York in my opinion which would have meant putting up the 3rd and not 2nd place horse which would have created pandemonium and threatened the integrity of the sport more than leaving Bayern up did. .

Now, others suggest that the outcome of the race was changed at the break because VE Day, Tonalist and Moreno were compromised. Well, as noted, other horses have been compromised at the start of races without a foul being entered. Its the nature of horse racing.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-santa-anita-bayern-decision-20141102-story.html
http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/11806565/bayern-disqualified
http://www.drf.com/news/beyer-stewards-made-right-call-classic-bayern-deserving-champ
http://www.horseracingnation.com/blogs/derbywars/Routinely_Disgraceful_123

What do you think?

I agree with you.  It's not possible to perfectly control a horse right at the jump ( they aren't cars!), which is probably why that rule exists in the first place.

There are lots of Baffert-haters but I'm not one of them.  Toast was my hunch bet, so I'm glad they left him up.

[Man o Taz]

Its funny. I am usually the one who calls for DQs and am frustrated at the stewards for not disqualifying horses.

However, here - even though a DQ would have helped California Chrome - to maybe - as I outlined - get 1st -at least second - I don't think it was warranted.

One point I failed to make which this gentleman does - is that Bayern could have been totally taken off his game and folded after such hard contact himself...

Now, he didn't...but this is why I do not think there was anything intentional in what Martin Garcia did.

http://blog.timesunion.com/robertlee/minority-opinion-on-the-breeders-cup-classic/2074/

Second, being bumped hard at the gate is obviously not a good thing for your horse. No one would argue that. However, that was not the end of the race. Despite what Shared Belief's jockey Mike        Smith and others would have you believe, the race did not end three strides out of the gate. Horses stumble badly leaving the gate and go on to win. Others get bumped, recover and go on to win.

And no - I would not take the horse down if it was a sprint or average stakes race either.

Its incidental contact.

[Senator L]

I don't think he should have been dq'd
I also think if it was 6 furlongs my opinion would change :chickendance:

[curtis]

On the one hand Bayern clearly interfered with a number of horses at the break, and that is "during the running of the race" since the race begins once the gates open.
Shared Belief clearly had trouble (as did Moreno) during the race, although I think it's debatable that the incident at the start alone actually cost him the race. I agree the trouble going past the stands first time was significant, plus SB got bumped on the back side. It was a rough trip all around for him, which is a shame since he didn't really get fair shake and this was not a gauge of his true ability.

I have two questions:
If the race had been a 6F sprint do you think Bayern would have been DQed?
If the race happened to be a stakes race on an average weekend (i.e. not the BC) do you think he would have been DQed?

If the answer is yes to either, then he should have been DQed on Saturday.
IMO he should have come down, but I am absolutely not surprised that he didn't given the prominence of the race and some of the other factors involved.

Where do you think Bayern should have been placed?  The 6f example is an entirely different argument.  The shorter the race, the more effect the start will have.  If it was the All-American Futurity, a horse doing what Bayern did comes down before the horses cross the finish line.  6f maybe but probably not.  In California a foul is not always a foul or at least one that requires a DQ.  The bottom line is the stewards followed the rules.  Most of the ire people have (not directed at you, but in general) is with the rule which calls for a subjective decision.  People can speculate all they want that Moreno would have cooked Bayern but to base a DQ on Bayern not breaking straight and impeding him is a stretch--at least for me.  Horses bump out of the gate, Bayern's biggest offense, regarding Shared Belief, was he may have put him into a position to be impeded when Toast of New York came over and Moreno came out.  This again requires a lot of speculation. 

[afleetphil]

Drives me crazy when things like this happen in big races. Chrome gets half his hoof torn off at the start of the Belmont. Moreno cuts off Wicked Strong causing him to lose his rider in the Gold Cup and now this. Even  saying this I think Bayern shouldn't have been DQ ed. It happened right out of the gate.

[Man o Taz]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/features/2014-breeders-cup-classic-race-sequence-692

Here is the race sequence.

I was hoping they would show Toast of new York and Shared Beliefs contact...

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/11815381/santa-anita-steward-explains-breeders-cup-classic-ruling

Chaney said there were actually two incidents affecting Shared Belief, the initial bump with Bayern, and a second incident about 150 meters later when Toast of New York drifted into the favorite's path, causing Shared Belief to take up sharply off heels. Stewards looked at both incidents but decided to focus on the initial rough contact, Chaney said.

[Man o Taz]

Jim Rome speaks out...

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/88537/rome-on-classic-garbage-result-ruined-race

And Steve Haskin

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2014/11/03/haskin-s-classic-recap-bayern-and-the-brouhaha.aspx