Horses That Could Have Beaten Ghostzapper

[afleetphil]

I get sick and tired of folks putting Ghostzapper on a pedestal. He didn't run much. Who in this century could have beaten him at 10 furlongs. Here's my list.

1./ Bernardini
2./ American Pharoah
3./ Point Given
4./ Afleet Alex
5./ Smarty Jones
6./ Invasor

[Man o Taz]

An interesting question.

The fact remains that none of them have run a time better than his 1:59.02.

1./ Bernardini -  2:01.60 ,2:01.02
2./ American Pharoah - 2:00.07
3./ Point Given - 2:00.76, 2:01.40
4./ Afleet Alex - 2:04.25
5./ Smarty Jones - 2:04.06
6./ Invasor - 2:02.18, 1:59.97

I would tend to see Invasor and American Pharoah as good candidates to best Ghostzapper's number...and you could be right regarding the other's at 4...

I also think Beholder might be able to as well.

Beholder - 1:59.77
A 21st century Dr. Fager - 1:59.60
A 21st century Nodouble at Hawthorne - 1:59.20 (at 3), 1:59.80 (at 4)
And, of course, a 4 year old American Pharoah
Frankel on dirt
Of course, Secretariat...

Slotting Ghostzapper as an all-time great has always been a problem for me for the reason you point out - he only had a year where he was really good - from mid-2004-2005.

I would suggest Game On Dude really because of all the horses listed, he is the only one who actually surpassed Ghistzapper's 1:59.02 mark with his 1:58.17 which is almost a full second faster.

To me, an all-time great needs more than a single year or a single race. But, that said, his speed was remarkable. And he does hold the highest speed figure on record in North America for any horse. 

[curtis]

I get sick and tired of folks putting Ghostzapper on a pedestal. He didn't run much. Who in this century could have beaten him at 10 furlongs. Here's my list.

1./ Bernardini
2./ American Pharoah
3./ Point Given
4./ Afleet Alex
5./ Smarty Jones
6./ Invasor

There is no correlation between a horse running sparingly and others being able to defeat him at 10f, or any other distance for that matter. Was Easy Goer a better horse than Sunday Silence because he ran more often?

[Senator L]

I think the biggest thing people don't consider when making
up races is how the race would have played out. If you have
9 all-time great speedballs and only 1 all time great closer I'll take
the closer. Ghostzapper was the most brilliant horse I have seen
and he also had heart. Are they all (3) years olds when they have this race or is it when they're 4?
watch this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCybECtk4M

[Man o Taz]

There is no correlation between a horse running sparingly and others being able to defeat him at 10f, or any other distance for that matter. Was Easy Goer a better horse than Sunday Silence because he ran more often?

I agree with the point, but not the example. Many did indeed believe that Easy Goer talent wise was a better horse than Sunday Silence. It just so happened that when they met Sunday Silence was 3-1.

BUt I think Easy Goer had more talent. Sunday Silence never set any records. Easy Goer was a monster. Sad thing he only won one stakes race outside of NY. He may be snakebit in that regard like Tonalist. I think Tonalist can win outside of NY, but he just has not. I do hope that Tonalist is campaigned more next year outside of NY.

Donn Handicap
Santa Anita Handicap
Metropolitan Mile
Suburban Handicap
Whitney
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Breeders Cup Classic

Tonalist raced 7 times last year. Hopefully he will be healthy enough this year to do so.

I think this is a HOTY campaign for him if he wins 4 of these races. More than that is icing on the cake. I assume he would try for the three peat for the JCGC which is why I did not suggest that Awesome Again as a prep for the BCC ala Mucho Macho Man.

I think the biggest thing people don't consider when making
up races is how the race would have played out. If you have
9 all-time great speedballs and only 1 all time great closer I'll take
the closer. Ghostzapper was the most brilliant horse I have seen
and he also had heart. Are they all (3) years olds when they have this race or is it when they're 4?
watch this one:

Great to watch that again. I think that might have been the result for American Pharoah had Liam's Map or Beholder showed up.

I think AP wins the race no matter what, but the margin changes depending upon who the competition is.

[afleetphil]

Ghostzapper and Invasor as 4 yr. olds at 10 furlongs. I see Invasor winning by two or so. We forget what a horse Invasor was. He tracked down Bernardini in the Classic.

[curtis]

I know there are many that think Easy Goer was more talented than Sunday Silence just as there are those that think Alydar had more talent than Affirmed. There's a reason they run the races though. Easy Goer was like a bull. He built up moementum as he ran. He had soft ankles and really did'nt turn well which is why he loved Belmont so much. Sunday Silence was as agile as a cat and was built like a gazelle. He was pretty devastating on turns and that was why he more often beat the Phipps horse. When one beats another 3 out of 4, it's really hard to argue that the winner of one was the best. Whittingham knew that Sunday Silence had only so many races in him. He probably ran him twice when he shouldn't have--Belmont and Swaps--and once worked him between races--a 1:33 and change mile--at Del Mar because it was easier on him than racing him. Sunday Silence may not have set any records but he was incredibly talented. For all the big BSF's Easy Goer posted they didn't help him when he ran against Sunday Silence.

[Senator L]

Ghostzapper and Invasor as 4 yr. olds at 10 furlongs. I see Invasor winning by two or so. We forget what a horse Invasor was. He tracked down Bernardini in the Classic.

Invasor had a great closing kick and I wouldn't doubt he could beat Ghostzapper...
but my money would be on zapper - you could put him anywhere in a race and
he was push button

[afleetphil]

Also I need to add to my original list. Both Curlin and Big Brown on their best days would have giving Ghostzapper trouble.

[Man o Taz]

Curlin?

He was so workmanlike. I know he ran fast speed figures, but did he ever approach a stakes record? I guess his 1:53.46 in the Preakness was pretty fast and his 2:00.59 is close to Carry Back and Majestic Light's 10 furlong record of 2:00.40 at Monmouth Park.

[Senator L]

Workmanlike...that's a very nice way to put it!
the guys at the OTB would get mad at me because I use
to say "he couldn't even beat a girl" lol  :chickendance:

[afleetphil]

But Rags was quite a girl. :chickendance:

[Man o Taz]

:-)

Well, until Bodemeister, didn't Curlin come closest to overcoming Apollo's curse? He did run faster than I thought he did.

And yes, Rags was some girl!

[Senator L]

Some horses grab your imagination more than others. Sometimes it's the
connections, might be breeding, could be winning money  :chickendance:
Nice thing about racing is - whatever floats your boat!

[Raven]

Some horses grab your imagination more than others. Sometimes it's the
connections, might be breeding, could be winning money  :chickendance:
Nice thing about racing is - whatever floats your boat!

That ^^  Some of my all time favorite horse are horses that not that many fans know their names!