#1
Started by Man o Taz, November 09, 2015, 11:30:06 AM
Previous topic - Next topicQuote from: peeptoad on November 10, 2015, 03:14:57 AMBy not contesting the Cigar Mile or the Clark, any of those Older Males are taking the easy path, if they're sound. In fact, I don't understand why American Pharoah isn't competing in the Cigar Mile. It's a one-turn mile, saddle him up and let him roll. Hopefully he has 25-30 years or so to recover. If Tonalist wins, I'd give him the award for not standing in his stall. Don't reward connections for standing around and muttering "Dare I eat a peach."
I think Tonalist may be more likely for the Cigar Mile rather than the Clark, unless Clement had a change in plans. That looks like it's going to be a good rendition of the race this year.
Regardless I think Honor Code for older male is appropriate. Why reward Liam's map for taking the easy path, although he beats HC any day in the brilliance department. Overall Honor Code has better wins on record.
eta: you also forgot the Whitney on Honor Code's resume.I'd say that trumps Liam since in their only head to head meeting HC defeated him.
Quote from: curtis on November 10, 2015, 03:12:06 PM
By not contesting the Cigar Mile or the Clark, any of those Older Males are taking the easy path, if they're sound. In fact, I don't understand why American Pharoah isn't competing in the Cigar Mile. It's a one-turn mile, saddle him up and let him roll. Hopefully he has 25-30 years or so to recover. If Tonalist wins, I'd give him the award for not standing in his stall. Don't reward connections for standing around and muttering "Dare I eat a peach."
Quote from: curtis on November 10, 2015, 03:12:06 PM
By not contesting the Cigar Mile or the Clark, any of those Older Males are taking the easy path, if they're sound. In fact, I don't understand why American Pharoah isn't competing in the Cigar Mile. It's a one-turn mile, saddle him up and let him roll. Hopefully he has 25-30 years or so to recover. If Tonalist wins, I'd give him the award for not standing in his stall. Don't reward connections for standing around and muttering "Dare I eat a peach."
Quote from: afleetphil on November 10, 2015, 01:21:23 PM
Taz,
Honor Code won the Whitney also. :chickendance:
Quote from: peeptoad on November 11, 2015, 05:14:38 AMThey always have been, which is why Exceller in 1978, Great Communicator in 1988 and Gentlemen in 1997 got nothing for their efforts.
Well, yes, this is true if the goal is the year end award. I guess for most it might be, but maybe some more than others. ?
If Tonalist runs in the Cigar Mile and finishes up the track I don't think that exactly aids his cause, even if one is taking he stance of not rewarding the horse that doesn't even try... in that case the horse that stayed in the barn had the overall better record, beat Tonalist twice prior, and then wouldn't have another loss on his resume. ? OTOH, if Tonalist wins that gives him another G1, matching HC's 2 G1s and then the argument becomes stronger. I still think HC would get since he beat Tonalist all three times they met on the track this year...
I don't know... just thinking aloud. These awards are pretty purely subjective right now anyway.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 11, 2015, 11:30:56 AMSure, why does he need to be retired now instead of the end of the month? It's not like it's going to impact next year's breeding season. He's supposed to be the country's best miler and he's passing up a Gr.1 mile? He's a horse who finished the year on a two race losing streak one at odds on. That's award worthy.
Well I would love to see American Pharoah in this race. However, despite not beginning the year until mid-March he did race 8 times, 7 of them G1s and he won 6 of them. He has nothing left to prove in my mind. Sure some want to suggest that if he had been pressed with a faster pace he would have caved, but this ignores that there were explanations for his loss in the Travers Stakes. HIs win in the Breeders Cup Classic showed that the Travers was an aberration. No way he ever loses to Keen Ice again.
And for that matter, where are Keen Ice and Frosted? Why aren't they in this race? Granted they both are bred for further, but this is the last marquee race of the year in NY.
Regarding the suggestion that Tonalist over Honor Code if he wins the Cigar Mile, I just think the other races had better fields, more prestige, and Honor Code finished ahead of Tonalist in each race. Now, because Honor Code has been retired, he is to be stigmatized because he is not in the gate?
If Tonalist wanted year end honors he should enter the Clark Handicap and win a race at Churchill Downs, outside of NY. Honor Code did that with his win in the G2 Gulfstream Park Handicap. Tonalist still has yet to get a graded stakes win outside of Belmont Park. Granted Aqueduct is a baby step, but if his team really wanted to demonstrate that Tonalist should get the older male award they should put to rest the speculation that he cannot win outside of NY. We shall see who Tonalist's competition ends up being.
Quote from: curtis on November 11, 2015, 11:40:58 AM
They always have been, which is why Exceller in 1978, Great Communicator in 1988 and Gentlemen in 1997 got nothing for their efforts.
My point is that if connections are rewarded for not running, then the system is broken. Look at 2013. Going into the BC there was minimal, if any, talk of Wise Dan being Horse of the Year. Then he wins the Mile and Game On Dude runs poorly in the Classic. Suddenly Wise Dan's the favorite for the award. There was no clear cut favorite for the award, really. I said on here that Wise Dan should have went to the Clark--a race he had won in the past--to face off with Will Take Charge and Game On Dude who were realistically his biggest rivals for the award. The response, for the most part, was that running in the Clark could only hurt him and not help him. He did sit out, the other two engaged in a very good race, and Wise Dan won the award. This thinking is what is wrong with the whole system, in my opinion. The two best, most talented older dirt males that ran this year, in my opinion, are Shared Belief and Liam's Map and the latter is part of the problem. Neither horse will get much consideration for the Eclipse, however because voters tend to count up G1's. It seems to me there is still some Gr.1's to be run, that count.
Quote from: curtis on November 11, 2015, 11:40:58 AM
They always have been, which is why Exceller in 1978, Great Communicator in 1988 and Gentlemen in 1997 got nothing for their efforts.
My point is that if connections are rewarded for not running, then the system is broken. Look at 2013. Going into the BC there was minimal, if any, talk of Wise Dan being Horse of the Year. Then he wins the Mile and Game On Dude runs poorly in the Classic. Suddenly Wise Dan's the favorite for the award. There was no clear cut favorite for the award, really. I said on here that Wise Dan should have went to the Clark--a race he had won in the past--to face off with Will Take Charge and Game On Dude who were realistically his biggest rivals for the award. The response, for the most part, was that running in the Clark could only hurt him and not help him. He did sit out, the other two engaged in a very good race, and Wise Dan won the award. This thinking is what is wrong with the whole system, in my opinion. The two best, most talented older dirt males that ran this year, in my opinion, are Shared Belief and Liam's Map and the latter is part of the problem. Neither horse will get much consideration for the Eclipse, however because voters tend to count up G1's. It seems to me there is still some Gr.1's to be run, that count.