Arrogate - After the DWC today where do you rank him

[afleetphil]

I'm trying to figure out where he stands after winning the Travers ( track record ), BCC, Pegasus and DWC. Those are four huge races to win in a row. What's his future as a four year old.

Thoughts

[curtis]

I'm trying to figure out where he stands after winning the Travers ( track record ), BCC, Pegasus and DWC. Those are four huge races to win in a row. What's his future as a four year old.

Thoughts

Horse of the Century.

[stark]

Sometimes its a-okay with me that an accomplished horse retires "prematurely" and I'd be just fine with that.  With every race there's some risk involved and I'd rather not hold my breath for another 2 minutes at DelMar.

As for where does he rank?  Silly question, #1 with $17 million plus in earnings.

[Catalina]

Sometimes its a-okay with me that an accomplished horse retires "prematurely" and I'd be just fine with that.  With every race there's some risk involved and I'd rather not hold my breath for another 2 minutes at DelMar.

As for where does he rank?  Silly question, #1 with $17 million plus in earnings.

Agree on all your posits.

[stark]

IF somebody would emerge during the year as a superstar and offer him a challenge on paper it might be interesting to see him in the BreedersCup, but if he's going to open up at 1/9 on the board and there's not much more to accomplish, he belongs in the barn for Juddmonte.

[curtis]

Where does it end though?  Going back retroactively, when would you have retired Secretariat?  A board of experts met to decide who the best match race opponent would be and they came up with his stablemate. Thank goodness for Onion and Witchita Oil for preventing that farce. Would you have retired Ruffian before the match race. If you believe legend--granted I've only heard it in urban areas--elite mares like Susan's Girl and Tizna wouldn't have been able to warm her up. People die in traffic accidents, should I not take my car into town today and Saddle up Anniversary Year instead?  Last time he and I went through the drive through at Starbucks he didn't like it and ended up eating my scone on the way home.

[stark]

Well, for a common sense guy who usually has his finger on the pulse, you're missing the big picture this time.
It's Juddmonte.
They've wanted a stud equal to or better than what they've ever had, and that says a mouthful.

Or, even if they elect to sell him off, the game is still about money and there's money in them stalls that make the BC look like pocket change.

This is not a typical Baffert, late bloomer, what did he have to overcome to make it to the races.  I know all the talk about being patient and letting him grow into himself, but something tells me it wasn't all that smooth of a childhood.

If you could sign a contract in advance that says if you win $17mil would you agree to retirement, you would sign it in a heartbeat, there's no reason to get greedy now. Everybody has their pictures and the memories, let him pass on the bloodlines and we can have naming games, Straight Arro will be my first entry.

https://youtu.be/gDwCMxPwJ_4

[curtis]

I do get your argument as well as the big picture. Winning 3-4 more races is not going to make him any better or more comparable to Secretariat or Spectacular Bid than he is now. Horses aren't campaigned that way anymore, you can thank the 1989 BCC for that, which is a much longer different discussion. And you're right he's not a typical Baffert, he's not a typical anything. Unless they've decided to start his stud career by shuttling him to Chile to haunt Chromie or to the Land of Oz, he ain't gonna make any money in the shed until next year.

You're actually making my argument about the big picture of the Pegasus. That race was a failure because, to me for it to work, Frosted, Nyquist and Exaggerator all needed to be in the gate and instead, they did what you're advocating--take the money and stand. So now because of the ridiculously inflated purse of that race, the winner should retire to a pasture for nine months on the assumption that he might suffer a rare catistrophic injury. Do you think that's what Frankie was hoping for when he conceived that race?

I'm sure you remember both Sir Beaufort--Whittingham's last Gr1 winner--and Real Connection--Mel Stute's one-eyed stakes mare. Both horses died due to accidents being transported to breeding farms, before they ever bred. I'm sure Baffert probably agrees with you more than me, as he doesn't need anymore white hair. Still I don't think we need stud farms full of McLean's Musics.

[stark]

If he were to have a nice vacation now and come back late in the year for the Breeders Cup and win easily, it would be nearly impossible to pull the plug at that point,  but rather the conversation starts all over again.  That was a good prep race for the Pegasus, then we've got another trip to Dubai in our sight$. 

Coming back just for the lil ol' BreedersCup seems rather meaningless at this point.

Speaking of memories......What was it that Whittingham said about horses and strawberries?

[curtis]

I think that they're pretty closed minded about Arrogate's future. They want to win another BCC. I think if the Pegasus is officially announced to move to Santa Anita and lengthened to 10f, that would be doable. Dubai would be out because it would keep him from another breeding season.

And yes I remember most all of Charlie's witticisms--including that about mushrooms and owners. I'm confidant enough that if Baffert detects any mold on the strawberries, he'll pull the plug.

[Dusty]

Sometimes its a-okay with me that an accomplished horse retires "prematurely" and I'd be just fine with that.  With every race there's some risk involved and I'd rather not hold my breath for another 2 minutes at DelMar.

As for where does he rank?  Silly question, #1 with $17 million plus in earnings.

I SOOOO want to see him run more - but NOT at DelMar - I would not run my horses at DelMar and the Breeders Cup was really wrong on that track choice

[peeptoad]

I'm trying to figure out where he stands after winning the Travers ( track record ), BCC, Pegasus and DWC. Those are four huge races to win in a row. What's his future as a four year old.

Thoughts

His future likely is a repeat at the Classic with some sort of prep for that I'd imagine.
As for where I'd personally rank him? He's easily the best horse I've seen run since I started watching racing in 1981 and he's likely on par with Spectacular Bid. I think he might be as good as Secretariat although he probably won't have a chance to prove that to the general public before he retires.
IMHO Arrogate is the only truly great horse of the "modern era" so far.
I think he's better than all of these, of course it's subjective, but what he's doing on the track clearly puts him above these guys:

American Pharoah- might be an unpopular opinion, but winning the TC doesn't automatically make a horse "great". It cements their place in history and in the public eye, but that's not the same thing.
CA Chrome- without question Arrogate is better and I think his last 2 races put this debate to rest for all but the most vociferous and biased fans of Chrome
Ghostzapper- GZ showed similar brilliance under certain circumstances, but Arrogate is in a different realm and GZ never proved he could overcome the adversity that Arro has
Curlin- I have a soft spot for him, but Arrogate is clearly better
Zenyatta- again Arrogate is better. No question and I loved Zenyatta. She in all likelihood would not have been able to overcome Gun Runner last Saturday and she faced inferior competition overall (of course no fault of her own).

[peeptoad]

Where does it end though?  Going back retroactively, when would you have retired Secretariat?  A board of experts met to decide who the best match race opponent would be and they came up with his stablemate. Thank goodness for Onion and Witchita Oil for preventing that farce. Would you have retired Ruffian before the match race. If you believe legend--granted I've only heard it in urban areas--elite mares like Susan's Girl and Tizna wouldn't have been able to warm her up. People die in traffic accidents, should I not take my car into town today and Saddle up Anniversary Year instead?  Last time he and I went through the drive through at Starbucks he didn't like it and ended up eating my scone on the way home.

I'd love to see what Arrogate could do going 12F on dirt. If they re-ran Sec's Belmont I think Arrogate would have the goods to at least challenge Secretariat. I'd love to see him accelerate throughout a mile & a half because I think he could do it... would be phenomenal. Too bad they don't race em like that anymore because I think he's a throwback in terms of carrying his speed and brilliance a distance.

[afleetphil]

I also compare him to the Bid, although the Bid sustained it for a far greater sample size. Arrogate is just amazing. He's scary amazing. I'm watching Gun Runner hoping he's going to win, than all of a sudden I see Arrogate charging up from the outside. Here he comes.

[afleetphil]

I may get torched here but here goes. Afleet Alex would have given Arrogate a run for his money in my opinion. He doesn't get the credit he deserves.