Eclipse Awards 2017

[Dusty]

Although I recognize and respect the fact that horse racing is all about opinions, if the following is not a Horse of the Year resume, then the award has no more meaning for me:

Jan. 6, 2016 won G2 San Pasqual
         Was shipped from California to Dubai
Feb, 25, won a DWC prep handicap carrying 132 pounds
Mar. 26, won the G1 Dubai World Cup with his saddle slipped into bucking strap territory over a truly world class field
          Returned to U.S. where he spent about a month at Taylor Made before going back into training
July 23, won the G2 San Diego Hcp
Aug. 20, won the G1 Pacific Classic
Oct. 1, won the G1 Awesome Again
Nov. 5, 2nd in G1 BCC by half length
Dec. 17, won the Winter Classic

2016: 8 races in 12 months with 7 wins and 1 second, winning $8,180,000 while never ducking any competition, carrying weight, winning in fast times, beating many of the best horses in the world

Seriously...what more does a horse have to do to be named Horse of the Year?

You say Arrogate is "incredibly special, too special for you to ignore." What does that make Chrome? Chopped liver? How special is it that a Kentucky Derby winner is still racing and winning at the top level of this sport at the age of 5? Whatever happens in the Pegasus and whatever the future holds for his stud career, California Chrome is a great horse who deserves more respect than for someone to brush off his remarkable year with "he doesn't need to be Horse of the Year." What does that even mean?

RIGHT ON!!!

[attachment deleted by admin]

[curtis]

Although I recognize and respect the fact that horse racing is all about opinions, if the following is not a Horse of the Year resume, then the award has no more meaning for me:

Jan. 6, 2016 won G2 San Pasqual
         Was shipped from California to Dubai
Feb, 25, won a DWC prep handicap carrying 132 pounds
Mar. 26, won the G1 Dubai World Cup with his saddle slipped into bucking strap territory over a truly world class field
          Returned to U.S. where he spent about a month at Taylor Made before going back into training
July 23, won the G2 San Diego Hcp
Aug. 20, won the G1 Pacific Classic
Oct. 1, won the G1 Awesome Again
Nov. 5, 2nd in G1 BCC by half length
Dec. 17, won the Winter Classic

2016: 8 races in 12 months with 7 wins and 1 second, winning $8,180,000 while never ducking any competition, carrying weight, winning in fast times, beating many of the best horses in the world

Seriously...what more does a horse have to do to be named Horse of the Year?

You say Arrogate is "incredibly special, too special for you to ignore." What does that make Chrome? Chopped liver? How special is it that a Kentucky Derby winner is still racing and winning at the top level of this sport at the age of 5? Whatever happens in the Pegasus and whatever the future holds for his stud career, California Chrome is a great horse who deserves more respect than for someone to brush off his remarkable year with "he doesn't need to be Horse of the Year." What does that even mean?

Ah the internet, where the world is seen seemingly only in extremes. Yes, you're right everything is either incredibly special or chopped liver. Finally someone who gets me.

[CA_Chrome]

Ah the internet, where the world is seen seemingly only in extremes. Yes, you're right everything is either incredibly special or chopped liver. Finally someone who gets me.

No Curtis, just no. My chopped liver remark is a metaphorical way of asking where Chrome's remarkable year fits if it isn't HOTY worthy. I'm not dismissing your point of view, but am trying to understand it.

We fans claim to want top horses to stay around longer instead of being rushed off to the shed. Here we have a Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner who had a remarkable year as a 5-YEAR-OLD, and we're willing to brush him off in favor of the latest lightly raced wunderkind?

We fans claim to want horses to race more often. Here we have a horse who runs almost once a month and wins all but one of them, but we're willing to brush that off in favor of the kind of horse we complain about -- one that didn't race at two and seems to need months between races. But we're willing to brush off the one who danced every dance?

[Man o Taz]

I do not think that curtis ever said that Chrome's year was not HOTY worthy, but only that based on his criteria for HOTY, he would choose Arrogate.

I was merely trying to understand his criteria better. I understand some folks think the winner of the BC Classic no matter what they have done for the year deserve HOTY. I understand others that feel that those that beat another horse head to head, all things being equal the head to head match-up should be the deciding factor. Those are not my feelings, but they certainly are shared by a number of people.

[Man o Taz]

Also understand, I don't see every year the same way.  In 1978, for example, I think Exceller absolutely should have won Champion Turf Horse, very well should have been named Champion Handicap Male and a definite case could have been made for Horse of the Year, although he was up against a TC winner which never have failed to win the latter award during the Eclipse era.  Exceller got nothing, nada, zilch.  In 1997, I would have voted for Gentlemen to win both Champion Older Male and Horse of the Year and again he was blanked.  What both Exceller and Gentlemen shared were outstanding campaigns while horses that were picked over them, especially in the latter's case, had resumes that either were dependent upon a strong performance or two or a dominant year and the promise of what might be coming up.

Again I think that Arrogate is incredibly special, too special for me to ignore and if I had a vote, the only way for me to acknowledge that fully, is to name him Horse of the Year.  Chrome is a wonderful example of what a dual Classic winner can be if you just let them grow up.  The only horses, that come to mind, I can even think of to compare to him to are Silver Charm and Funny Cide.  He compares favorably with them, for sure and had an incredible year and while excellent at his peak, he doesn't get up into that rarefied air category for me, and he doesn't need to to be Horse of the Year, but when there is a, almost otherworldly talent out there....  I can find comparables for Tepin and even Songbird, through the years and while the context of every year is different, I can't really come up with much to compare with what I've seen with Arrogate.

Well, I think there are other horses that compare well to Chrome.

I think Funny Cide and Silver Charm were quality horses, but Chrome has proven himself to be better than both I believe.

I think he compares favorably with Alydar, Discovery. Better than Ack, Ack, Majestic Prince, etc.

Silver Charm is 63 in the top 100. With all the horses since the publication he is probably now around 75 or so...

I would place California Chrome in the top 50, maybe a bit higher.

Right now, I would not have Arrogate anywhere on the list. Maybe 110. He is a very special horse. But he has yet to achieve much.

[CA_Chrome]

I understand some folks think the winner of the BC Classic no matter what they have done for the year deserve HOTY. I understand others that feel that those that beat another horse head to head, all things being equal the head to head match-up should be the deciding factor. Those are not my feelings, but they certainly are shared by a number of people.

I accept and respect those points of view, but don't understand the need to devalue the accomplishments of one horse in order to build up those of another. I say this because, as a young and foolish person I so loved Secretariat that I could not appreciate Seattle Slew. I resented Slew back then. In 1977 I was at Hollywood Park to see Slew race in the Swaps Stakes and was happy he lost to J. O. Tobin. The maturity that comes with decades lived has shown me how stupid my attitude was back then.

[curtis]

I accept and respect those points of view, but don't understand the need to devalue the accomplishments of one horse in order to build up those of another. I say this because, as a young and foolish person I so loved Secretariat that I could not appreciate Seattle Slew. I resented Slew back then. In 1977 I was at Hollywood Park to see Slew race in the Swaps Stakes and was happy he lost to J. O. Tobin. The maturity that comes with decades lived has shown me how stupid my attitude was back then.

And I thought Bud Delp was the devil for saying that Spectacular Bid was the greatest horse to ever look through a bridle, both because he was, seemingly, dismissing Secretariat and I was a huge fan of Flying Paster. I was in high school then though and as you say we grow up.

I used Silver Charm--who I'll always have a soft spot for, I'm still miffed at Old Friends over the handling of Bluesthestandard but if I get to KY in the near future I'd love to go see Silver Charm--and Funny Cide simply because they are Derby/Preakness winners that ran at five.  The Blood Horse list was comprised to get people talking on the internet, which it has, however I've always found it hard to take seriously. How do you really compare Alsab with Affirmed or Sysonby with Seabiscuit?  I was also told on a thread long ago to take Secretariat with a grain of salt because he only beat second rate horses because Sham wasn't on the list.  And truly, if it's going to be based on accomplishments, everybody is chasing Kelso.

I'll end with this. Man O' Taz somewhere Supra, compared Chrome with Ack Ack. I was a kid then, but I vividly remember Ack Ack and won't ever forget him. He won the 7f San Carlos, the 8.5f SanPasqual, the 9f San Antonio and the 10f Big 'Cap at Santa Anita. After a short break, he won and set long standing records in both the 5.5f Hollywood Express and the 9f (turf) American Handicap before wiring the field in the Hollywood Gold Cup under 134 lbs. I know from at least the Big 'Cap, in which he defeated fellow HOF member Cougar II, he carried 130 lbs. each time. Now could Chrome do this?  I don't know, maybe, but because of races being rescheduled, horses running on laisex, etc. we don't ask them to do it anymore.  There are a few horses, Chrome, Dortmund and Frosted come to mind,  that had they been trained up for speed would have made short work of the BC Sprint but now that horses specialize, we don't ask it of them. I once said we need to redefine greatness in a horse or we'll never see it again. I was on a thread once with Barry Irwin who flat out said he didn't consider Ack Ack a great horse and he covered him writing for the Thoroughbred of California. I think by today's standards, Chrome is a great horse. I have the utmost respect for Curlin and I think they compare favorably as in a little more than twenty-four hours, they'll both be 2x HOTY's.  Before I get into Tolstoy territory, this must end. I will mention though, that besides my two knuckleheads, Anniversary Year and Border Run, my favorite TB ever is Quack who won the 1972 Hollywood Gold Cup in the fastest 10f ever recorded by a 3 yo. Quack wasn't near sound--especially in the ankles--and I could go on and on with stories about what Whittingham had to do to run him even if he couldn't train him.  Suffice it to say I loved that horse and whenever I see a Kafwain or a Misremembered a couple dollars go their way as Quack is the broodmare sire for both. So I suppose that may make me the one and only Quacker. 😉  Chromies, I get it, I really do.

[Man o Taz]

Curits - I could read your posts all day long with the amount of history and passion that are shared.

I'll make certain to get you some pics of next week's race if any come out.

[CA_Chrome]

I was a kid then, but I vividly remember Ack Ack and won't ever forget him. He won the 7f San Carlos, the 8.5f SanPasqual, the 9f San Antonio and the 10f Big 'Cap at Santa Anita. After a short break, he won and set long standing records in both the 5.5f Hollywood Express and the 9f (turf) American Handicap before wiring the field in the Hollywood Gold Cup under 134 lbs. I know from at least the Big 'Cap, in which he defeated fellow HOF member Cougar II, he carried 130 lbs. each time. Now could Chrome do this?

I love Ack Ack. He's one of my all-time favorites. I remember Cougar also and was at the rail when he finished third to Secretariat and Riva Ridge in the first Marlboro Cup (won by Red in world record time).

You ask if Chrome could do something similar to what Ack Ack did when he beat Cougar while carrying 130 lbs. Thing is, Chrome did do something similar when he won that DWC prep handicap in Dubai carrying 132 lbs. last year. Granted there were no Cougars and Ack Acks in that field, but he did win while carrying weight that U.S. horses are seldom asked to carry anymore. So all I hope for is that people give Chrome his due even if they are not fans or they prefer to see a different horse as HOTY.

[Man o Taz]

I love Ack Ack. He's one of my all-time favorites. I remember Cougar also and was at the rail when he finished third to Secretariat and Riva Ridge in the first Marlboro Cup (won by Red in world record time).

You ask if Chrome could do something similar to what Ack Ack did when he beat Cougar while carrying 130 lbs. Thing is, Chrome did do something similar when he won that DWC prep handicap in Dubai carrying 132 lbs. last year. Granted there were no Cougars and Ack Acks in that field, but he did win while carrying weight that U.S. horses are seldom asked to carry anymore. So all I hope for is that people give Chrome his due even if they are not fans or they prefer to see a different horse as HOTY.

Chrome faced competition like Cougar II? I know he carried 132 pounds, but the field was probably the weakest he faced all year. That is why he carried 15 pounds more than the field. 

[CA_Chrome]

Chrome faced competition like Cougar II? I know he carried 132 pounds, but the field was probably the weakest he faced all year. That is why he carried 15 pounds more than the field.

No, you misunderstood my post. I was referring to the 132 pounds he carried, not the field. He carried the weight and won with it. We don't see top horses carrying much more than 126 anymore.

[curtis]

Speaking of Cougar, he was one quirky sonofagun. If you went to his stall and sang to him in Spanish--he was Chilean--he'd fall right to sleep. If you didn't he'd likely take a bite out of you. I've got a great photo of Bill Shoemaker at Cougar's stall with The Big Cat's ears pinned and teeth bared and Shoe with a big grin. He was a sweetheart to handle but you couldn't pony him to the gate because he'd bite the pony. Cougar was at least as popular as John Henry, Zenyatta or Chrome. He would always stop during the post parade and gawk at the tote board as if he wanted to make sure he was favored. He wouldn't budge until he did that, then he'd look at the crowd and then allow himself to be warmed up. During his races, he dropped back to last early and if you tried to send him before he was ready, he'd sulk and drop back even more. Once he was ready, Cougar would take hold of the bit and show off one of the most devastating turn of foots I've ever seen. He climbed like crazy and had this long flowing black tail. Cougar also loved to run on the rail, which is never optimal for a closer. Shoe would try to slingshot passed the field on the outside and get clear by the 1/8th pole because he knew once clear, Cougar would make a beeline for the rail come hell or high water. Cougar also had a big splotch of white on his side as if someone threw bleach at him. He was named after Red Pollard, of Seabiscuit fame, whose nickname as a boxer was The Cougar. His original owner was race caller, Joe Hernandez who was a good friend of Pollard. Hernandez imported the equine Cougar from Chile and eventually sold him to Mary Bradley and Charlie Whittingham.

[CA_Chrome]

Cougar II, The Big Cat:



Ack Ack

[curtis]

Cougar II, The Big Cat:



Ack Ack

That must have been when Harry Guggenheim owned Ack Ack before the sale to Buddy Fogelson.

[Man o Taz]

No, you misunderstood my post. I was referring to the 132 pounds he carried, not the field. He carried the weight and won with it. We don't see top horses carrying much more than 126 anymore.

It seemed your post was referring to not just weight, but competition. My mistake.