. . . I'll say it.
Game on Dude beats up on weaker competition, but when forced to race against equals and near-equals --- even at his home race track two years in a row --- he absolutely cannot get it done. SO overrated.
He's a fine horse. He hasn't had it on the Big Day these past two years, but he's a very fine horse.
I have to agree at this point. When the chips are down he simply doesn't deliver.
Seems like he doesn't like horses coming up to challenge him or something. He seems to fade and throw in the towel.
Quote from: Flintknapper on November 02, 2013, 05:57:57 PM
He's a fine horse. He hasn't had it on the Big Day these past two years, but he's a very fine horse.
I agree, he is a terrific horse, just not a great horse.
But when top notch horses fly into SoCal and look him in the eye, sadly he caves in.
I'll be glad when a nice up and comer like Tiz the Truth turns 4 and can actually inject quality into the handicap horse ranks. Flashback looked good today but he's no 10f horse. Who really IS nowadays?
The offspring of Zenyatta in a few years?
And the offspring of Giant Oak in a few years?
Those horses will WANT 10 furlongs! :rhrse:
The offspring of Will Take Charge. HE is the 3 year old eclipse champ in my book. He lost on a head bob.
He's one helluva horse ... just for some reason can't win the big one. Happens sometimes.
Made a 1 dollar profit one the race thanks to a win bet on MMM. Had my trifecta keyed on GOD unfortunately.
I don't get it. I just don't get it. Game on Dude was touted as a monster, a shoe-in for HOY, bitter fans because he didn't win HOY last year. He loses a race, and instantaneously he's a bum. Why is it people build pedestals for what they want to be their heroes and then kick it out from inunder them when they prove to be imperfect?@! One day you're a star; the next day it gets ripped off the door.
I just don't get it.
Quote from: The Tin Man on November 02, 2013, 07:20:43 PM
He's one helluva horse ... just for some reason can't win the big one. Happens sometimes.
Made a 1 dollar profit one the race thanks to a win bet on MMM. Had my trifecta keyed on GOD unfortunately.
I would have done much better betting if I'd just bet WPS instead of exactas. I had the winner of four races but the wrong horse in second.
:headshake:
Quote from: Ballerina on November 02, 2013, 07:37:10 PM
I don't get it. I just don't get it. Game on Dude was touted as a monster, a shoe-in for HOY, bitter fans because he didn't win HOY last year. He loses a race, and instantaneously he's a bum. Why is it people build pedestals for what they want to be their heroes and then kick it out from inunder them when they prove to be imperfect?@! One day you're a star; the next day it gets ripped off the door.
I just don't get it.
Fame is so fleeting, isn't it? There's a lot of . . .
"What have you done for me in the last 10 minutes?"
Quote from: Ballerina on November 02, 2013, 07:37:10 PM
I don't get it. I just don't get it. Game on Dude was touted as a monster, a shoe-in for HOY, bitter fans because he didn't win HOY last year. He loses a race, and instantaneously he's a bum. Why is it people build pedestals for what they want to be their heroes and then kick it out from inunder them when they prove to be imperfect?@! One day you're a star; the next day it gets ripped off the door.
I just don't get it.
That's not really it though. I still think he's a nice horse and he certainly puts up good speed figures, but he just isn't able to dance the big dance, for whatever reason. Personally, I don't think he likes big fields. Mike Smith said he went as fast as he always does in the first 6f or so, but he just didn't have it at the end.
I'm trying to think of a similar case with a dominant East Coast handicap horse who flopped on multiple occasions at his home base Breeders' Cup but I can't think of any. I wouldn't bring up the Coasts except for the fact that the racing is deeper on the east side of the country.
Quote from: Ballerina on November 02, 2013, 07:37:10 PM
I don't get it. I just don't get it. Game on Dude was touted as a monster, a shoe-in for HOY, bitter fans because he didn't win HOY last year. He loses a race, and instantaneously he's a bum. Why is it people build pedestals for what they want to be their heroes and then kick it out from inunder them when they prove to be imperfect?@! One day you're a star; the next day it gets ripped off the door.
I just don't get it.
I never called him a bum; instead, I called him a "terrific" horse.
And he is. He has won a lot of races and a lot of money.
But usually in California, against small and inferior fields.
His three biggest races in the last two years?
12th in the 2012 Dubai World Cup.
7th in last year's BCC on his home track.
9th in this year's BCC.
He was overhyped and overrated.
A terrific horse, just not a great horse.
Quote from: Ballerina on November 02, 2013, 07:37:10 PM
I don't get it. I just don't get it. Game on Dude was touted as a monster, a shoe-in for HOY, bitter fans because he didn't win HOY last year. He loses a race, and instantaneously he's a bum. Why is it people build pedestals for what they want to be their heroes and then kick it out from inunder them when they prove to be imperfect?@! One day you're a star; the next day it gets ripped off the door.
I just don't get it.
Well stated Balance ... I'm with you on this.
I agree with Dave on this one.
The great ones always seem to fight to the end, no matter what. They don't win every time, but they're always in the mix down the stretch, fighting. Look at Groupie Doll and Wise Dan today. Neither had an easy time of it, but they have the hearts of a champion, and the indomitable will to win.
Dude is a very good horse, but when things get tough, sometimes he just seems to quit. I'd think a lot more of him if he battled to the wire, like Mucho Macho Man did last year, finishing a hard-charging second, and holding on desperately for the win this year. In contrast, Dude seemed to give up, finishing seventh last year, and ninth this year.
Mike Smith set Dude up perfectly this year, but the Dude just didn't step up. He doesn't seem to have that champions heart when it's going to take a fight to win.
He's a good horse, but not a champion.
Seems maybe he's an excellent horse if he's on the lead ... but if you look him in the eye ... he's not down with that.
Quote from: The Tin Man on November 02, 2013, 08:50:38 PM
Seems maybe he's an excellent horse if he's on the lead ... but if you look him in the eye ... he's not down with that.
I think that's right.
Actually, I'm not sure why Mike Smith didn't take him to the lead today. I don't remember the early pace being that extraordinarily fast.
Maybe there was something else going on with him that we don't know.
Quote from: The Tin Man on November 02, 2013, 08:50:38 PM
Seems maybe he's an excellent horse if he's on the lead ... but if you look him in the eye ... he's not down with that.
True 'dat!
Quote from: Vic in Chicago on November 02, 2013, 08:42:07 PM
He doesn't seem to have that champions heart when it's going to take a fight to win.
He's a good horse, but not a champion.
I don't get this. In 2011 he was touted for being such a fighter and having heart, I even remember someone(I think Haskins?) writing an article on it. I wonder what happened? Maybe he's so used to getting his way the last two years in Cali he has gotten complacent? Do horses do that?
You don't win the way he does to just be an ok/decent horse. He is a high quality horse who just seems to forget that in the Classic, for whatever reason.
Quote from: Zenyatta on November 02, 2013, 05:58:12 PM
I have to agree at this point. When the chips are down he simply doesn't deliver.
I agree with the fact that when push comes to shove he doesn't run well, but he ran well in the Classic back in 2010/11 (or whatever year Drosselmeyer won), so he
can run well on the big stage. Not sure why that isn't happening now in the last couple of years. Maybe that field back in 10/11 was weaker than I am remembering...
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 02, 2013, 07:53:24 PM
I never called him a bum; instead, I called him a "terrific" horse.
And he is. He has won a lot of races and a lot of money.
But usually in California, against small and inferior fields.
His three biggest races in the last two years?
12th in the 2012 Dubai World Cup.
7th in last year's BCC on his home track.
9th in this year's BCC.
He was overhyped and overrated.
A terrific horse, just not a great horse.
[/quote]
I never said you called him a bum. I didn't quote what you wrote. Others posted their thoughts, as well.
I just find it puzzling that it takes a disappointing loss for people to say he's "overhyped and overrated". More frustration than reality. More Monday morning QB'ing than prediction. Up until yesterday, he was the front runner for HOY. I wish some of the old threads were still around with people's comments on just how good this horse is/was.
He did good work for the benefit of racing fans. He's not perfect, but what horse is? I think it's a shame that all the good work gets pushed aside for a what has he done lately mindset.
Quote from: The Tin Man on November 02, 2013, 08:13:59 PM
Well stated
Balance ... I'm with you on this.
[/quote]
Balance?@! :lmao:
Quote from: Ballerina on November 03, 2013, 05:38:21 AM
Quote from: The Tin Man on November 02, 2013, 08:13:59 PM
Well stated Balance ... I'm with you on this.
Balance?@! :lmao:
[/quote]
Ahhhhhh ... Spell check always wants to turn you into Balance!
I didn't catch it that time. ;)
And once again you're Balance, Bal!
Damn smart phone! ;)
Quote from: The Tin Man on November 03, 2013, 08:08:43 AM
And once again you're Balance, Bal!
Damn smart phone! ;)
Don't you have something other than a smartphone (more like a dumbphone LOL) to type on?
Quote from: Zenyatta on November 03, 2013, 08:10:53 AM
Quote from: The Tin Man on November 03, 2013, 08:08:43 AM
And once again you're Balance, Bal!
Damn smart phone! ;)
Don't you have something other than a smartphone (more like a dumbphone LOL) to type on?
Not when I'm on the road. :-)
Quote from: Ballerina on November 03, 2013, 05:25:49 AM
I wish some of the old threads were still around with people's comments on just how good this horse is/was.
Well, I thought he was the frontrunner for the award prior to the BC and I think he would have have been almost a lock if he had been among the top 3 finishers. He's the most consistent of the older dirt males (MMM is close), regardless of the fact that he stayed in CA and beat weaker competition.
The fact that CA has the highest percentage of G1 routes for older males on the main track of anywhere in the country really played to Dude's advantage. The fact that none (or few) of the east coast big guns bothered to ship and take him on also gave him an edge. This is either a weak older male crop or a fairly decent one with no particular standout...
Quote from: Ballerina on November 03, 2013, 05:25:49 AM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 02, 2013, 07:53:24 PM
I never called him a bum; instead, I called him a "terrific" horse.
And he is. He has won a lot of races and a lot of money.
But usually in California, against small and inferior fields.
His three biggest races in the last two years?
12th in the 2012 Dubai World Cup.
7th in last year's BCC on his home track.
9th in this year's BCC.
He was overhyped and overrated.
A terrific horse, just not a great horse.
I never said you called him a bum. I didn't quote what you wrote. Others posted their thoughts, as well.
I just find it puzzling that it takes a disappointing loss for people to say he's "overhyped and overrated". More frustration than reality. More Monday morning QB'ing than prediction. Up until yesterday, he was the front runner for HOY. I wish some of the old threads were still around with people's comments on just how good this horse is/was.
He did good work for the benefit of racing fans. He's not perfect, but what horse is? I think it's a shame that all the good work gets pushed aside for a what has he done lately mindset.
[/quote]
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Just as Zenyatta's final BCC was a defining moment for "proving" just how good she was --- or wasn't --- I think yesterday's BCC was a similar defining moment for GOD. We could throw out his poor performance in the Dubai World Cup in 2012 (travel); we could throw out his poor performance in last year's BCC (poor start, never got all that close to the lead); but yesterday he had no excuses, again on his home track. Its not that he lost, its that he spit out the bit at the quarter pole for a second straight year and did no running down the stretch.
I agree with you Ballerina: before the race the Horse of the Year award was his to lose. And he was perfect for the year. Like Zenyatta, he raced almost exclusively in SoCal, and his detractors do hold that against him.
Zenyatta ran a great race --- arguably her best ever --- in losing by a long nose to Blame on an "away" track in the 2010 BCC, and in doing so, lost little stature. GOD's second straight flop in the BCC, coupled with his dominant performances the rest of the year in SoCal suggest that he faced virtually nothing in most of those other races.
And you are right, Ballerina, about this being Monday Morning quarterbacking, or hindsight. But that is the nature of life.
Think some people have recently changed their former opinion about Obamacare (from two years ago) based upon what has happened in the last month? Probably so.
Recent events do result in "revisionist history," as we reevaluate the opinions we once held months or years ago, in determining whether they were valid and accurate. And our formerly-held inflated view of Game On Dude's quality was --- in retrospect --- probably not warranted.
Again, he is a terrific horse. You can still make a credible case he is HOY.
But a victory yesterday against that field would have been the crowning moment of a great year. Too bad it didn't happen.
Life is full of Monday morning QB'ing, Dave. My 2 ex-husbands are perfect examples of that. :headshake:
Quote from: Zenyatta on November 03, 2013, 09:55:06 AM
Life is full of Monday morning QB'ing, Dave. My 2 ex-husbands are perfect examples of that. :headshake:
There is a wonderful book by a psychiatrist I read once that sums it up: title is something like "Old too soon, wise too late."
Certainly true in my case, and I am not so sure about the "wise" part either.
I'm gonna be a meanie and just for the big races dub him"Game On Dud."
That's how autocorrect does it on my phone - Game On Dud :lmao:
Quote from: Zenyatta on November 04, 2013, 06:40:00 PM
I'm gonna be a meanie and just for the big races dub him"Game On Dud."
Or ... Game Off Dude.
Quote from: Ballerina on November 02, 2013, 07:37:10 PM
I don't get it. I just don't get it. Game on Dude was touted as a monster, a shoe-in for HOY, bitter fans because he didn't win HOY last year. He loses a race, and instantaneously he's a bum. Why is it people build pedestals for what they want to be their heroes and then kick it out from inunder them when they prove to be imperfect?@! One day you're a star; the next day it gets ripped off the door.
I just don't get it.
Exactly.
He showed up in tough races.
Ron The Greek was coming off his career high Beyer Speed Figure of 115 in his Sunshine Millions victory and he was bested by Game On Dude.
In this year's Charles Town Classic he faced the previous year's winner Caixa Eletronica and Ron The Greek again and bested him.
He also won in the Pacific Classic impressively this year after missing it two previous years.
Mr. Baffert said before the race that Game On Dude needed to have no one immediately in front of him and Mike Smith did not follow those instructions. I think he should have been allowed to go to the lead. He was not. He was held back. In training it appeared that they were trying to get him to rate during the works - working with other horses - but Jerry Bailey said if you take a horse out of his natural comfort zone sometimes you do not get the best result. The connections over thought the race and paid the price.
Personally, I did not think Game On Dude would win because I thought he needed a race before the Classic like the Awesome Again. I would have skipped the Pacific Classic rather than the Awesome Again.
Then again, so many stellar performances by him throughout the year might have taken their toll.
And there is likely a reason why no six year old horse or older has ever won the Classic...but it does not mean that the six year olds competing were not quality horses.
There is no route horse this year who had a more dominant season in the US. He is a deserving Older Male Eclipse Award winner.
After the race, bet ol' Dude laughed all the way back to his barn! W. C. Fields was right! A horse would never bet on people! Horses are too smart.
Dude: I fooled 'em again! :lmao:
Tin Man, I like that "Game Off Dude". :thumbsup:
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 05, 2013, 07:14:58 AM
Exactly.
He showed up in tough races.
Ron The Greek was coming off his career high Beyer Speed Figure of 115 in his Sunshine Millions victory and he was bested by Game On Dude.
In this year's Charles Town Classic he faced the previous year's winner Caixa Eletronica and Ron The Greek again and bested him.
He also won in the Pacific Classic impressively this year after missing it two previous years.
Mr. Baffert said before the race that Game On Dude needed to have no one immediately in front of him and Mike Smith did not follow those instructions. I think he should have been allowed to go to the lead. He was not. He was held back. In training it appeared that they were trying to get him to rate during the works - working with other horses - but Jerry Bailey said if you take a horse out of his natural comfort zone sometimes you do not get the best result. The connections over thought the race and paid the price.
Personally, I did not think Game On Dude would win because I thought he needed a race before the Classic like the Awesome Again. I would have skipped the Pacific Classic rather than the Awesome Again.
Then again, so many stellar performances by him throughout the year might have taken their toll.
And there is likely a reason why no six year old horse or older has ever won the Classic...but it does not mean that the six year olds competing were not quality horses.
There is no route horse this year who had a more dominant season in the US. He is a deserving Older Male Eclipse Award winner.
I read one article in which Baffert said he knew GoD was in trouble when they were going too fast on the backstretch, yet isn't GoD's signature a high cruising speed?
It seems as if he just doesn't like to be challenged by another horse, and he folds if that happens.
I'm not sure it's the challenge part he doesn't like but the crowding part he dislikes. In previous races he's shown to be able to handle pressure with a high cruising speed, but doesn't do to well when other horses are all around him.
Quote from: Charlie on November 06, 2013, 05:19:06 PM
I'm not sure it's the challenge part he doesn't like but the crowding part he dislikes. In previous races he's shown to be able to handle pressure with a high cruising speed, but doesn't do to well when other horses are all around him.
Good point!
Now that youve brought that up, he does seem to be pretty cool with the one on one challenges ... it does seem to be while in a cluster of horse, he mails it in.
Horses have been known to be claustrophobic.
Quote from: Ballerina on November 06, 2013, 06:04:13 PM
Horses have been known to be claustrophobic.
If that's true for The Dude, and it may be, he must have been very uncomfortable coming around the far turn, wedged between Ft. Larned and MMM. Maybe that explains why he just folded.
Any or all of these explanations --- excuses? --- may be valid.
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
If he doesn't make an easy lead, if some other horse is in front of him, if they go too fast early, if he is caught between other horses, he may just spit out the bit at the quarter pole and be nowhere at the finish.
That's the mark of a horse who is dynamite when everything goes his way, and below average (as a purported top-flight stakes horse) when things don't go his way.
I won't criticize him for losing. It happens to the best of them. It is the margin of his losses that bothers me.
I think his three way-up-the-track performances (2012 Dubai World Cup; 2013 BCC; 2013 BCC) show that this horse just quits when things don't go his way. He doesn't fight and run hard when facing adversity, he just seems to completely quit.
The best horses run well --- maybe not win, but run well --- even when they face adversity and stiff competition. GOD simply does not seem to have the grit that most of his competitors at the top of the racing game have.
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 12:15:14 AM
Any or all of these explanations --- excuses? --- may be valid.
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
...not sure how you can argue that he's not consistent. If nothing else at all he
has been consistent this year, up until the BC that is. You can argue that he may not have been consistent if he had shipped more often, etc. but as it stands he is the most consistent of all the older main track males.
Well, Dude may get a shot in a rare G1 outside the golden state... he and Will Take Charge are possible for the G1 Clark later this month. I noticed that Wine Princess is also on the possible list. Would be interesting to see her try the males...probably up against it though.
Quote from: Islandgirl45 on November 05, 2013, 09:10:00 AM
I read one article in which Baffert said he knew GoD was in trouble when they were going too fast on the backstretch, yet isn't GoD's signature a high cruising speed?
It seems as if he just doesn't like to be challenged by another horse, and he folds if that happens.
Yes. I thought this was strange.
If you look at the fractions he has one with before where he has been on the lead - these fractions did not appear too quick.
I used to think that Game On Dude was challenged if the splits were faster than 24 second furlongs, but his Santa Anita Derby this year and his 2011 one suggest that's false.
Here are his splits from past Santa Anita Handicaps he won and this year's BC Classic.
2011 - Final time - 1:59.47
22.95, 46.73, 1;10.73, 1:34.80
2013 Final Time - 2:00.14
23.64, 47.19 (in front by 2 1/2 lengths after a half-mile), 1:10.97, 1:35.24
2013 BC Classic Final Time - 2:00.72
23.39, 46.36, 1:10.23, 1:34.84
This year's Classic was a touch faster than those other efforts where he won the races. But the final time was a half to a full second more. And he was not on the lead.
I still think the notion of getting the horse to rate in training screwed up his effort.
This and Mr. Baffert indicating that he needed a clear view and Mr. Smith had him behind horses.
Quote from: peeptoad on November 07, 2013, 04:21:20 AM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 12:15:14 AM
Any or all of these explanations --- excuses? --- may be valid.
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
...not sure how you can argue that he's not consistent. If nothing else at all he has been consistent this year, up until the BC that is. You can argue that he may not have been consistent if he had shipped more often, etc. but as it stands he is the most consistent of all the older main track males.
Seemingly so, Peeptoad.
However, don't his completely embarrassing, non-competitive failures in the biggest races against the best competition suggest that running all year in SoCal, Game On Dude consistently caught weak fields and the perfect circumstances for his best efforts?
He IS real consistent --- and a really good horse --- when facing inferior competition, and especially when he is the lone speed.
Wonder how he will do next year if opposing trainers consistently enter "rabbits" to press him on the front end.
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 12:15:14 AM
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
Dave...please leave your personal religious beliefs out of this. This is a horse-racing board. :D
duplicate post
Quote from: Vic in Chicago on November 07, 2013, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 12:15:14 AM
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
Dave...please leave your personal religious beliefs out of this. This is a horse-racing board. :D
Given my advanced age and the fact I will one day meet my maker, I hope that God, the creator of the Universe, does not monitor my posts on this Board! :hug:
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
Quote from: Vic in Chicago on November 07, 2013, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 12:15:14 AM
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
Dave...please leave your personal religious beliefs out of this. This is a horse-racing board. :D
Given my advanced age and the fact I will one day meet my maker, I hope that God, the creator of the Universe, does not monitor my posts on this Board! :hug:
SHE is everywhere, much like the Board administrators. 8)
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
Quote from: Vic in Chicago on November 07, 2013, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 12:15:14 AM
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
Dave...please leave your personal religious beliefs out of this. This is a horse-racing board. :D
Given my advanced age and the fact I will one day meet my maker, I hope that God, the creator of the Universe, does not monitor my posts on this Board! :hug:
If God does happen to monitor our posts, I am certain she has a sense of humor.
Just to carry that a step further...if you enjoy The Daily Show you may also enjoy his former head writer and producer David Javerbaum's The Tweet of God...following up on his The Last Testament A Memoir by God.
https://twitter.com/TheTweetOfGod
Quote from: Zenyatta on November 08, 2013, 06:18:31 AM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
Quote from: Vic in Chicago on November 07, 2013, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 12:15:14 AM
What they show is that GOD is nowhere as consistent, solid, or tough-minded as lots of us thought he was.
Dave...please leave your personal religious beliefs out of this. This is a horse-racing board. :D
Given my advanced age and the fact I will one day meet my maker, I hope that God, the creator of the Universe, does not monitor my posts on this Board! :hug:
SHE is everywhere, much like the Board administrators. 8)
My faith in the existence of GOD was badly shaken after Zenyatta lost her last race to Blame in the BCC.
How could a compassionate GOD allow that to happen? :banghead:
God was sharing the wealth.
And he had the last laugh on Blame by giving Zenyatta Horse of the Year.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 08, 2013, 10:43:48 AM
God was sharing the wealth.
And he had the last laugh on Blame by giving Zenyatta Horse of the Year.
God had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 11:59:32 AM
However, don't his completely embarrassing, non-competitive failures in the biggest races against the best competition suggest that running all year in SoCal, Game On Dude consistently caught weak fields and the perfect circumstances for his best efforts?
He IS real consistent --- and a really good horse --- when facing inferior competition, and especially when he is the lone speed.
Wonder how he will do next year if opposing trainers consistently enter "rabbits" to press him on the front end.
Game on Dude didn't spend the entire season in California. He took on Ron the Greek in the Charles Town Classic. He also finished second in the 2011 BC Classic at Churchill.
Quote from: Kennedy on November 08, 2013, 11:24:52 AM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 07, 2013, 11:59:32 AM
However, don't his completely embarrassing, non-competitive failures in the biggest races against the best competition suggest that running all year in SoCal, Game On Dude consistently caught weak fields and the perfect circumstances for his best efforts?
He IS real consistent --- and a really good horse --- when facing inferior competition, and especially when he is the lone speed.
Wonder how he will do next year if opposing trainers consistently enter "rabbits" to press him on the front end.
Game on Dude didn't spend the entire season in California. He took on Ron the Greek in the Charles Town Classic. He also finished second in the 2011 BC Classic at Churchill.
Thanks for the correction as to the Charles Town Classic.
And although GOD ran a really good race in the 2011 BCC (although he did cough up a big lead in the stretch, he still ran really well, IMO), the connections immediately dumped Chantal Sutherland after that race.
Guess she wasn't the problem in the BCC!
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 08, 2013, 01:53:13 PM
Thanks for the correction as to the Charles Town Classic.
And although GOD ran a really good race in the 2011 BCC (although he did cough up a big lead in the stretch, he still ran really well, IMO), the connections immediately dumped Chantal Sutherland after that race.
Guess she wasn't the problem in the BCC!
Actually, it is my understanding that they did not switch jockeys on Game On Dude (from Chantal Sutherland to Rafael Bejarano) until after the 2012 Pacific Classic (http://2012%20pacific%20classic). Mr. Bejarano rode him in the first incarnation of the Awesome Again (http://awesome%20again) in 2012. Game On Dude fell victim to the peanut butter slop of Churchill Downs in the 2011 version of the BC Classic. Ms. Sutherland did nothing wrong in that race. In fact, she retains the best performance by GOD in a BC Classic.
Thus, she was not the problem in the BCC.
Quote from: Kennedy on November 08, 2013, 11:24:52 AM
Game on Dude didn't spend the entire season in California. He took on Ron the Greek in the Charles Town Classic. He also finished second in the 2011 BC Classic at Churchill.
And in 2012 he participated in the Dubai World Cup (12), in 2011 he also participated in the Charles Town Classic (2), and the Lone Star Park Handicap (3), and in 2010 he was in two maiden races placing (2,1) at Gulfstream Park, the Florida Derby (7), Churchill Downs for the Cliff's Edge Derby Trial (5), the Lone Star Park Derby (1), and the Belmont Stakes (4). So to add to your point - he has traveled outside of California quite a bit.
Examining this resume, 40% of his races have been run outside the state of California.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 13, 2013, 08:14:03 AM
And in 2012 he participated in the Dubai World Cup (12), in 2011 he also participated in the Charles Town Classic (2), and the Lone Star Park Handicap (3), and in 2010 he was in two maiden races placing (2,1) at Gulfstream Park, the Florida Derby (7), Churchill Downs for the Cliff's Edge Derby Trial (5), the Lone Star Park Derby (1), and the Belmont Stakes (4). So to add to your point - he has traveled outside of California quite a bit.
Examining this resume, 40% of his races have been run outside the state of California.
But in the early part of his career he clearly wasn't the horse he is today. He has improved significantly over what he was as a 3yo. So it is difficult to compare his early races. One might actually say that he did not become a really good horse until he started running in Cal on a regular basis.
Quote from: Kennedy on November 13, 2013, 10:47:56 AM
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 13, 2013, 08:14:03 AM
And in 2012 he participated in the Dubai World Cup (12), in 2011 he also participated in the Charles Town Classic (2), and the Lone Star Park Handicap (3), and in 2010 he was in two maiden races placing (2,1) at Gulfstream Park, the Florida Derby (7), Churchill Downs for the Cliff's Edge Derby Trial (5), the Lone Star Park Derby (1), and the Belmont Stakes (4). So to add to your point - he has traveled outside of California quite a bit.
Examining this resume, 40% of his races have been run outside the state of California.
But in the early part of his career he clearly wasn't the horse he is today. He has improved significantly over what he was as a 3yo. So it is difficult to compare his early races. One might actually say that he did not become a really good horse until he started running in Cal on a regular basis.
......against sub par competition.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 13, 2013, 08:14:03 AM
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 08, 2013, 01:53:13 PM
Thanks for the correction as to the Charles Town Classic.
And although GOD ran a really good race in the 2011 BCC (although he did cough up a big lead in the stretch, he still ran really well, IMO), the connections immediately dumped Chantal Sutherland after that race.
Guess she wasn't the problem in the BCC!
Actually, it is my understanding that they did not switch jockeys on Game On Dude (from Chantal Sutherland to Rafael Bejarano) until after the 2012 Pacific Classic (http://2012%20pacific%20classic). Mr. Bejarano rode him in the first incarnation of the Awesome Again (http://awesome%20again) in 2012. Game On Dude fell victim to the peanut butter slop of Churchill Downs in the 2011 version of the BC Classic. Ms. Sutherland did nothing wrong in that race. In fact, she retains the best performance by GOD in a BC Classic.
Thus, she was not the problem in the BCC.
Quote from: Kennedy on November 08, 2013, 11:24:52 AM
Game on Dude didn't spend the entire season in California. He took on Ron the Greek in the Charles Town Classic. He also finished second in the 2011 BC Classic at Churchill.
And in 2012 he participated in the Dubai World Cup (12), in 2011 he also participated in the Charles Town Classic (2), and the Lone Star Park Handicap (3), and in 2010 he was in two maiden races placing (2,1) at Gulfstream Park, the Florida Derby (7), Churchill Downs for the Cliff's Edge Derby Trial (5), the Lone Star Park Derby (1), and the Belmont Stakes (4). So to add to your point - he has traveled outside of California quite a bit.
Examining this resume, 40% of his races have been run outside the state of California.
Man O Taz, you were right. Chantal wasn't dumped until after that 2012 Pacific Classic.
Thanks for the correction! :forruffian:
Quote from: Kennedy on November 13, 2013, 10:47:56 AM
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 13, 2013, 08:14:03 AM
And in 2012 he participated in the Dubai World Cup (12), in 2011 he also participated in the Charles Town Classic (2), and the Lone Star Park Handicap (3), and in 2010 he was in two maiden races placing (2,1) at Gulfstream Park, the Florida Derby (7), Churchill Downs for the Cliff's Edge Derby Trial (5), the Lone Star Park Derby (1), and the Belmont Stakes (4). So to add to your point - he has traveled outside of California quite a bit.
Examining this resume, 40% of his races have been run outside the state of California.
But in the early part of his career he clearly wasn't the horse he is today. He has improved significantly over what he was as a 3yo. So it is difficult to compare his early races. One might actually say that he did not become a really good horse until he started running in Cal on a regular basis.
True.
When do you measure that he got good?
When he won his first stakes race?
The Lone Star Derby...G3...that would give him 7 out of 24 outside of CA or 29% of his races.
When he won his first G1 race?
That would be March 2011 - his second race career race in California - so let's eliminate the seven races in before that...
23% of his races - 5 out of 21 occurred outside of CA. 1.66 a year...out of an average of 7 races per year.
That's better than a lot of California-based horses.
Quote from: FT-TBC-TRF on November 14, 2013, 06:14:11 AM
......against sub par competition.
What do you base that on? Two BC Classic races? So he does not run well at the end of the year at the age of 5 and 6. The notion that he always fades against top competition has been disproven.
In 2011 he left California three times...he did not win but finished in the money in all of those races besting the following:
Acclamation
Awesome Gem
Flat Out
Gone Astray
Havre De Grace
Headache
Icebox
Inherit The Gold
Prayer for Relief
Rattlesnake Bridge
Rule
Ruler on Ice
So You Think
Stay Thirsty
Tackleberry
Tizway
To Honor and Serve
Uncle Mo
In 2012, he did what only one other American G1 winning horse did that year and went to the Dubai World Cup. True - he did not perform well - but he has never ducked competition.
In 2013 he bested the following horses in his travels:
Ron The Greek in the Santa Anita Handicap and the Charles Town Classic also defeating the previous year's winner Caixa Eletronica.
Remember in the SAH RTG was coming off his career high BSF so he was in good form and GOD dispatched him with ease.
And guess what - the runner up to Game On Dude in those races was among the inferior competition that Game On Dude had been accused of facing earlier that year in Clubhouse Ride who also bested RTG and CE.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 15, 2013, 07:16:28 AM
Quote from: Kennedy on November 13, 2013, 10:47:56 AM
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 13, 2013, 08:14:03 AM
And in 2012 he participated in the Dubai World Cup (12), in 2011 he also participated in the Charles Town Classic (2), and the Lone Star Park Handicap (3), and in 2010 he was in two maiden races placing (2,1) at Gulfstream Park, the Florida Derby (7), Churchill Downs for the Cliff's Edge Derby Trial (5), the Lone Star Park Derby (1), and the Belmont Stakes (4). So to add to your point - he has traveled outside of California quite a bit.
Examining this resume, 40% of his races have been run outside the state of California.
But in the early part of his career he clearly wasn't the horse he is today. He has improved significantly over what he was as a 3yo. So it is difficult to compare his early races. One might actually say that he did not become a really good horse until he started running in Cal on a regular basis.
True.
When do you measure that he got good?
When he won his first stakes race?
The Lone Star Derby...G3...that would give him 7 out of 24 outside of CA or 29% of his races.
When he won his first G1 race?
That would be March 2011 - his second career race in California - so let's eliminate the seven races in before that...
23% of his races - 5 out of 21 occurred outside of CA. 1.66 a year...out of an average of 7 races per year.
That's better than a lot of California-based horses.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 15, 2013, 07:16:28 AM
Quote from: Kennedy on November 13, 2013, 10:47:56 AM
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 13, 2013, 08:14:03 AM
And in 2012 he participated in the Dubai World Cup (12), in 2011 he also participated in the Charles Town Classic (2), and the Lone Star Park Handicap (3), and in 2010 he was in two maiden races placing (2,1) at Gulfstream Park, the Florida Derby (7), Churchill Downs for the Cliff's Edge Derby Trial (5), the Lone Star Park Derby (1), and the Belmont Stakes (4). So to add to your point - he has traveled outside of California quite a bit.
Examining this resume, 40% of his races have been run outside the state of California.
But in the early part of his career he clearly wasn't the horse he is today. He has improved significantly over what he was as a 3yo. So it is difficult to compare his early races. One might actually say that he did not become a really good horse until he started running in Cal on a regular basis.
True.
When do you measure that he got good?
When he won his first stakes race?
The Lone Star Derby...G3...that would give him 7 out of 24 outside of CA or 29% of his races.
When he won his first G1 race?
That would be March 2011 - his second race career race in California - so let's eliminate the seven races in before that...
23% of his races - 5 out of 21 occurred outside of CA. 1.66 a year...out of an average of 7 races per year.
That's better than a lot of California-based horses.
In my estimation he became a good horse when he became a 4yo and matured a bit. Despite my cagey devils advocate role in this thread I actually do not believe that Game on dude was smoke and mirrors with a record trumped up by inferior competition. I think that his going to California and becoming a good horse just happened that way. The one was not the cause of the other.
He has done just fine away from California since turning 4. Aside from going to Dubai which hasn't been kind to the US team since they began at Meydan.
I also think that his losses in the last two Classics were not a case of a false jade getting exposed. I actually think he just isn't as good at 10f and for whatever reason he also didn't run his best race. I'm a bit wary of Baffert horses in the BC in races other than the Sprint and Juvenile events. Game on Dude's failures are far from the first he's had.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 15, 2013, 07:39:25 AM
Quote from: FT-TBC-TRF on November 14, 2013, 06:14:11 AM
......against sub par competition.
What do you base that on? Two BC Classic races? So he does not run well at the end of the year at the age of 5 and 6. The notion that he always fades against top competition has been disproven.
In 2011 he left California three times...he did not win but finished in the money in all of those races besting the following:
Acclamation
Awesome Gem
Flat Out
Gone Astray
Havre De Grace
Headache
Icebox
Inherit The Gold
Prayer for Relief
Rattlesnake Bridge
Rule
Ruler on Ice
So You Think
Stay Thirsty
Tackleberry
Tizway
To Honor and Serve
Uncle Mo
In 2012, he did what only one other American G1 winning horse did that year and went to the Dubai World Cup. True - he did not perform well - but he has never ducked competition.
In 2013 he bested the following horses in his travels:
Ron The Greek in the Santa Anita Handicap and the Charles Town Classic also defeating the previous year's winner Caixa Eletronica.
Remember in the SAH RTG was coming off his career high BSF so he was in good form and GOD dispatched him with ease.
And guess what - the runner up to Game On Dude in those races was among the inferior competition that Game On Dude had been accused of facing earlier that year in Clubhouse Ride who also bested RTG and CE.
Man O'Taz does an admirable job of making the best case possible for GOD.
His accomplishments, as referenced above, make it all the more baffling that in three of the four most important races of his life --- the last two BCC and the Dubai World Cup --- he was nowhere close to being competitive.
That's what so troubling to me. In those "big" races, he just plain quit.
Quote from: Kennedy on November 18, 2013, 07:21:22 PM
I also think that his losses in the last two Classics were not a case of a false jade getting exposed. I actually think he just isn't as good at 10f and for whatever reason he also didn't run his best race. I'm a bit wary of Baffert horses in the BC in races other than the Sprint and Juvenile events. Game on Dude's failures are far from the first he's had.
I really think that on-track/grandstand noise might be a factor for this horse, and it wouldn't be the first time a horse has been affected that way. From past experience I know that the biggest racedays in SoCal (Big Cap day, Gold Cup. etc) generally get on-track attendance of ~30-50% of what the BC gets and that's if the weather cooperates.
Do you happen to have GoD's lifetime past performances by any chance? It would be interesting to look at his lifetime pps on one page to see where his biggest misfires have occurred. It is undeniable that he is a better horse now than when he was younger though. 2013 was his best year yet, and it would be a disappointment for this race fan if he did not walk with the older male award (the Clark might affect that verdict I suppose). The only other older dirt male with any chance is MMM and he only has 2 wins on the year.
I think that a lot of the Game On Dude discussion can be encapsulated with one question.
Based on everything we know, don't know and are guessing about Game on Dude will he win the Clark?
Quote from: Kennedy on November 19, 2013, 06:40:24 AM
I think that a lot of the Game On Dude discussion can be encapsulated with one question.
Based on everything we know, don't know and are guessing about Game on Dude will he win the Clark?
My guess is yes, but only a guess without even knowing the field.
I agree, without seeing the field in detail my choice would be Game on Dude.
Thanks for the pps Kennedy. After looking at them briefly the only concrete factor that I can come up with regarding GoD's dismal BC performance(s) is the relationship between the early fractions in the race and the distance. The only time he has been able to win when the opening half mile is under :47 is at 9F or under (though he almost won the 2012 Pac Classic, Dullahan passed him pretty easily suggesting that his late pace in that race was probably not as good as it appeared). With the exception of the 2011 Big Cap going :46 and change early, all of his 10F races in which he won had an opening half of over :46 (most were :47-:49 range). He did win that 2011 Big Cap, but he won by a diminishing nose to far lesser horse (Setsuko). I think a person can reasonably toss both Dubai excursions since many NA horses do not do well over there. The only logical assumption I can make (and a logical assumption seems almost like an oxymoron) is that he needs slightly slower fractions early at anything over 9F.
The other interesting thing looking at races earlier in his career is that he was often not on the lead early. He seems to be a definitely frontrunner now, but was not always that way, so maybe something else is going on...
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 18, 2013, 07:56:53 PM
Man O'Taz does an admirable job of making the best case possible for GOD.
His accomplishments, as referenced above, make it all the more baffling that in three of the four most important races of his life --- the last two BCC and the Dubai World Cup --- he was nowhere close to being competitive.
That's what so troubling to me. In those "big" races, he just plain quit.
I have always liked Game On Dude. His sire. His running style.
I think Kennedy does make a good point regarding possible distance limitations. I used to think this too - but after he won 5 10 furlong races - well I thought maybe I was wrong.
I do not see the "In those "big" races, he just plain quit."
I certainly understand why you feel that way, but last year he had trouble at the gate that finished him off. This year he broke well and instead of being allowed to contest the lead he was forced to rate. Now Mr. Baffert suggested that he thought he was going too fast early, but elsewhere I showed that the splits in the other SAH's were not much different from those in races where he was on the lead and he won when compared to this BCC.
I think Jerry Bailey hit the nail on the head where he suggested that while they appeared to be training GOD in his works to rate, sometimes you can pay the price in the race for trying to do too many things differently. I think they tried to change his style getting him to rate and they paid the price.
Now, why was this the approach? Did the connections really have reason to fear this co0mpetition? Did they believe as Kennedy suggested that he might be distance challenged? Or did they overthink it?
Certainly, if you believe you have the best horse in the competition there is no reason to try and change his racing style.
Or did he need a race in between the Pacific Classic and the BCC?
I think there are plenty of explanations other than that he just did not show up.
In Dubai, as Kennedy suggests no American have fared well. Heck, it took GOD three times to win the Pacific Classic.
Quote from: peeptoad on November 19, 2013, 09:47:30 AM
Thanks for the pps Kennedy. After looking at them briefly the only concrete factor that I can come up with regarding GoD's dismal BC performance(s) is the relationship between the early fractions in the race and the distance. The only time he has been able to win when the opening half mile is under :47 is at 9F or under (though he almost won the 2012 Pac Classic, Dullahan passed him pretty easily suggesting that his late pace in that race was probably not as good as it appeared). With the exception of the 2011 Big Cap going :46 and change early, all of his 10F races in which he won had an opening half of over :46 (most were :47-:49 range). He did win that 2011 Big Cap, but he won by a diminishing nose to far lesser horse (Setsuko). I think a person can reasonably toss both Dubai excursions since many NA horses do not do well over there. The only logical assumption I can make (and a logical assumption seems almost like an oxymoron) is that he needs slightly slower fractions early at anything over 9F.
The other interesting thing looking at races earlier in his career is that he was often not on the lead early. He seems to be a definitely frontrunner now, but was not always that way, so maybe something else is going on...
I discussed this earlier in the thread.
I think you need to differentiate from instances when he was on the lead and just off the lead, don't you?
In the 2013 BC Classic, he was off the lead so can you really attribute the 46.36 time for the first half to him? I thought he was a length or two off the lead in the first half mile which would place his time around 47 wouldn't it? And if that is indeed the case, then this time is consistent with winning efforts he has had in the recent and distant past at 10 furlongs at Santa Anita. The only difference would be what I have suggested before - he was not on the lead. And this was Mr. Bailey's point.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 07, 2013, 11:26:46 AM
Quote from: Islandgirl45 on November 05, 2013, 09:10:00 AM
I read one article in which Baffert said he knew GoD was in trouble when they were going too fast on the backstretch, yet isn't GoD's signature a high cruising speed?
It seems as if he just doesn't like to be challenged by another horse, and he folds if that happens.
Yes. I thought this was strange.
If you look at the fractions he has one with before where he has been on the lead - these fractions did not appear too quick.
I used to think that Game On Dude was challenged if the splits were faster than 24 second furlongs, but his Santa Anita Derby this year and his 2011 one suggest that's false.
Here are his splits from past Santa Anita Handicaps he won and this year's BC Classic.
2011 - Final time - 1:59.47
22.95, 46.73, 1;10.73, 1:34.80
2013 Final Time - 2:00.14
23.64, 47.19 (in front by 2 1/2 lengths after a half-mile), 1:10.97, 1:35.24
2013 BC Classic Final Time - 2:00.72
23.39, 46.36, 1:10.23, 1:34.84
This year's Classic was a touch faster than those other efforts where he won the races. But the final time was a half to a full second more. And he was not on the lead.
I still think the notion of getting the horse to rate in training screwed up his effort.
This and Mr. Baffert indicating that he needed a clear view and Mr. Smith had him behind horses.
Gosh, I like the intelligence and work involved by the previous few posters to really analyze his past performances and figure out what is going on.
But it all leads me back to a point make much, much earlier in this thread.
The more "conditions" you place on GOD's best performances --- that is, for his best effort, he must break well, must not be "rated," cannot go too fast too early, cannot be "behind" horses, maybe should run at less than at 10 furlongs --- the more it leads me to conclude that when this horse is looked in the eye by really competition in classic distance races, he tends to spit out the bit. Again, the problem for me is not that he gets beat, but that he seems to quit at the quarter pole. He has to have it all his way.
On his best day, a terrific horse. When its not his best day, nowhere around at the finish.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 19, 2013, 12:07:22 PM
Quote from: peeptoad on November 19, 2013, 09:47:30 AM
Thanks for the pps Kennedy. After looking at them briefly the only concrete factor that I can come up with regarding GoD's dismal BC performance(s) is the relationship between the early fractions in the race and the distance. The only time he has been able to win when the opening half mile is under :47 is at 9F or under (though he almost won the 2012 Pac Classic, Dullahan passed him pretty easily suggesting that his late pace in that race was probably not as good as it appeared). With the exception of the 2011 Big Cap going :46 and change early, all of his 10F races in which he won had an opening half of over :46 (most were :47-:49 range). He did win that 2011 Big Cap, but he won by a diminishing nose to far lesser horse (Setsuko). I think a person can reasonably toss both Dubai excursions since many NA horses do not do well over there. The only logical assumption I can make (and a logical assumption seems almost like an oxymoron) is that he needs slightly slower fractions early at anything over 9F.
The other interesting thing looking at races earlier in his career is that he was often not on the lead early. He seems to be a definitely frontrunner now, but was not always that way, so maybe something else is going on...
I discussed this earlier in the thread.
I think you need to differentiate from instances when he was on the lead and just off the lead, don't you?
In the 2013 BC Classic, he was off the lead so can you really attribute the 46.36 time for the first half to him? I thought he was a length or two off the lead in the first half mile which would place his time around 47 wouldn't it? And if that is indeed the case, then this time is consistent with winning efforts he has had in the recent and distant past at 10 furlongs at Santa Anita. The only difference would be what I have suggested before - he was not on the lead. And this was Mr. Bailey's point.
I'm not talking about GoD's personal fractions within the race- I'm simply talking about the fractions the race was run in (the fractions on paper in the chart). Not sure whether it matters or not if he was on the lead. The fractions are the fractions regardless of whether he set those fractions or they were those set by another horse in the race that he was chasing. GoD has natural, early speed, which is probably why he has been on the lead of late, but he doesn't really seem to need the lead. What he does seem to need going over 9F is a more moderate early pace, and it would make sense that 10F races run at the sport's highest level would have brisker earlier fractions. If the pace had been more moderate and he was in the first flight of horses one could potentially assume that his closing kick would have been better.
Of course, I am speculating... since the horse can't talk. Maybe the crowd noise was all that did him in.
But wouldn't that suggest distance limitations?
Maybe he should be in the 8-9 furlong type races exclusively.
It does not mean that he gives up or throws in the towel - or that he is not a quality horse - it just means that he has been outrunning his ability.
He is not a 10 furlong horse - but for not being a 10 furlong horse - he certainly has more wins at that distance than any other - because his connections pick and choose his races really well.
To me this is a compliment to the horse and not a criticism.
It is similar to a female stepping up to face males and winning. OK - maybe she cannot face and beat males day in and day out - but the fact that she can compete in open company against the best of the best makes her special.
Game On Dude has distance limitations. Perhaps his trainer and connections know this and as a result were trying to put their horse in the best position to win. And they have. He has had a very successful 2013. But the really interesting point is that he has 5 10 furlong wins - which is more 10 furlong wins than any of the main track horses who have beaten him at this distance have.
Fort Larned - 1
Mucho Macho Man - 1
First Dude - 1
Dullahan - 1
Drosselmeyer - 3
Monterosso - 4
Acclamation I believe has six or seven wins at 10 furlongs or more.
This is to his credit - since as some of us suggest - he may not be a 10 furlong horse. Heck, to win 5 G1s at a distance that may not be your ideal distance - that's saying something.
His record at 10 furlongs is 11-5-3-0.
I think this is a really interesting discussion.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 19, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
But wouldn't that suggest distance limitations?
Maybe he should be in the 8-9 furlong type races exclusively.
It does not mean that he gives up or throws in the towel - or that he is not a quality horse - it just means that he has been outrunning his ability.
He is not a 10 furlong horse - but for not being a 10 furlong horse - he certainly has more wins at that distance than any other - because his connections pick and choose his races really well.
To me this is a compliment to the horse and not a criticism.
It is similar to a female stepping up to face males and winning. OK - maybe she cannot face and beat males day in and day out - but the fact that she can compete in open company against the best of the best makes her special.
Game On Dude has distance limitations. Perhaps his trainer and connections know this and as a result were trying to put their horse in the best position to win. And they have. He has had a very successful 2013. But the really interesting point is that he has 5 10 furlong wins - which is more 10 furlong wins than any of the main track horses who have beaten him at this distance have.
Acclamation - 1 - main track
Fort Larned - 1
Mucho Macho Man - 1
First Dude - 1
Dullahan - 1
Drosselmeyer - 3
Monterosso - 4
Acclamation I believe has six or seven wins at 10 furlongs or more but many are on turf.
This is to his credit - since as some of us suggest - he may not be a 10 furlong horse. Heck, to win 5 G1s at a distance that may not be your ideal distance - that's saying something.
His record at 10 furlongs is 11-5-3-0.
I think this is a really interesting discussion.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 19, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
But wouldn't that suggest distance limitations?
Maybe he should be in the 8-9 furlong type races exclusively.
It does not mean that he gives up or throws in the towel - or that he is not a quality horse - it just means that he has been outrunning his ability.
He is not a 10 furlong horse - but for not being a 10 furlong horse - he certainly has more wins at that distance than any other - because his connections pick and choose his races really well.
To me this is a compliment to the horse and not a criticism.
It is similar to a female stepping up to face males and winning. OK - maybe she cannot face and beat males day in and day out - but the fact that she can compete in open company against the best of the best makes her special.
Game On Dude has distance limitations. Perhaps his trainer and connections know this and as a result were trying to put their horse in the best position to win. And they have. He has had a very successful 2013. But the really interesting point is that he has 5 10 furlong wins - which is more 10 furlong wins than any of the main track horses who have beaten him at this distance have.
Fort Larned - 1
Mucho Macho Man - 1
First Dude - 1
Dullahan - 1
Drosselmeyer - 3
Monterosso - 4
Acclamation I believe has six or seven wins at 10 furlongs or more.
This is to his credit - since as some of us suggest - he may not be a 10 furlong horse. Heck, to win 5 G1s at a distance that may not be your ideal distance - that's saying something.
His record at 10 furlongs is 11-5-3-0.
I think this is a really interesting discussion.
He seems okay at 10F, but it's not his best distance imo. And I don't think that means he should race exclusively in races under 10, but it's helped his cause to have a higher percentage of G1 10F races than any other part of the country occur in CA. This is evidenced in the piece from your post below:
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 19, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
Game On Dude has distance limitations. Perhaps his trainer and connections know this and as a result were trying to put their horse in the best position to win. And they have. He has had a very successful 2013. But the really interesting point is that he has 5 10 furlong wins - which is more 10 furlong wins than any of the main track horses who have beaten him at this distance have.
Game On Dude reminds me a lot of both Riva Ridge and Precisionist. Both of those horses were speed horses who were usually done in, when they lost, by their connections over thinking or in Lucien Lauren's case not thinking clearly. You could even add Ruhlman before Whittingham got him and just let him roll. Baffert and Smith should have just let him roll away from the gate and go after the lead. His best chance was to get the lead clear and that was taken away from him. As far as big races go I'll say the same thing I always said about Precisionist, who was often accused of not being able to win the big ones, Game On Dude doesn't know if he's in the BCC or a 10k claimer. It's the people preparing him who know.
Quote from: curtis on November 19, 2013, 04:25:13 PM
Game On Dude reminds me a lot of both Riva Ridge and Precisionist. Both of those horses were speed horses who were usually done in, when they lost, by their connections over thinking or in Lucien Lauren's case not thinking clearly. You could even add Ruhlman before Whittingham got him and just let him roll. Baffert and Smith should have just let him roll away from the gate and go after the lead. His best chance was to get the lead clear and that was taken away from him. As far as big races go I'll say the same thing I always said about Precisionist, who was often accused of not being able to win the big ones, Game On Dude doesn't know if he's in the BCC or a 10k claimer. It's the people preparing him who know.
Well, you are correct that GOD doesn't actually know when he is in a big race.
But he knows when he is in a big race because that is when he is facing stiff, high quality competition.
He knows because turning for home, he doesn't have a clear easy lead, but instead, has horses ahead or abrest of him!
That is his signal to spit out the bit! :evil:
Quote from: Dave in TJ Mex on November 19, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
Quote from: curtis on November 19, 2013, 04:25:13 PM
Game On Dude reminds me a lot of both Riva Ridge and Precisionist. Both of those horses were speed horses who were usually done in, when they lost, by their connections over thinking or in Lucien Lauren's case not thinking clearly. You could even add Ruhlman before Whittingham got him and just let him roll. Baffert and Smith should have just let him roll away from the gate and go after the lead. His best chance was to get the lead clear and that was taken away from him. As far as big races go I'll say the same thing I always said about Precisionist, who was often accused of not being able to win the big ones, Game On Dude doesn't know if he's in the BCC or a 10k claimer. It's the people preparing him who know.
Well, you are correct that GOD doesn't actually know when he is in a big race.
But he knows when he is in a big race because that is when he is facing stiff, high quality competition.
He knows because turning for home, he doesn't have a clear easy lead, but instead, has horses ahead or abrest of him!
That is his signal to spit out the bit! :evil:
I get all that but does he not have that clear lead because he can't get it or he is not being sent for fear of being fried on the lead? I think it is the latter. You sound old enough to remember Ancient Title. Most now think he was a sprinter because of the Grade 1 that bore his name for many years. If you remember him though, you know he was a horse who could get 10f in a Grade 1 running very much like Game On Dude runs in his successful races. As Ancient Title aged, Keith Stucki and Sandy Hawley, who was his regular rider at the time, thought that being on the engine was too tough on him so they rated him. His inconsistent performances were mostly attributed to age (if you truly are old enough to remember Ancient Title you'll know what that means from personal experience ;)). At Del Mar in 1977, Darrell McHargue climbed on a 7-year-old Ancient Title with the idea of sending him and making a very good field come and get him in the Del Mar Handicap which was the equivalent of today's Pacific Classic--minus about 60 feet. Ancient Title ran the field off their feet and won by open lengths. After that with either McHargue or Shoemaker up, Ancient Title became rejuvenated until his career ended. In the world according to me, if Game On Dude goes in the Clark, Bobby and Mike should come out with guns a blazin'!
Looking at the prospective field, I don't think the guns will even need to be particularly blazing.
Quote from: peeptoad on November 19, 2013, 04:14:46 PM
He seems okay at 10F, but it's not his best distance imo. And I don't think that means he should race exclusively in races under 10, but it's helped his cause to have a higher percentage of G1 10F races than any other part of the country occur in CA. This is evidenced in the piece from your post below:
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 19, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
Game On Dude has distance limitations. Perhaps his trainer and connections know this and as a result were trying to put their horse in the best position to win. And they have. He has had a very successful 2013. But the really interesting point is that he has 5 10 furlong wins - which is more 10 furlong wins than any of the main track horses who have beaten him at this distance have.
I agree. There is no reason to not enter him in those races, particularly since his connections appear interested in running for the top money races and oftentimes the 10 furlong main track races have the biggest purses.
That said, I would like to see him race more at 9 furlongs and even at a mile. He had two 9 furlong races last year. Four the year before. And in 2011 two 9 furlong races and two 8.5 furlong races. In those 10 races I believe he was 8-1-0. Not a bad winning percentage. Of course, then we'll get the response that he was not facing very tough fields because only 3 of the ten were outside of California.
As much as everyone seems to talk smack about this horse, he only lost ONE race in a year. He has a weakness, yes, but who else in his division even comes close to what he has accomplished over the past three years? As much as Baffert said he did better with more time off, I think the break between the Pacific and Breeders Cup Classics was just a bit too much. He might not have taken the big race, but I think his overall resume this year still warrants the Eclipse for his division.
Quote from: General Assembly on November 23, 2013, 05:42:00 PM
As much as everyone seems to talk smack about this horse, he only lost ONE race in a year. He has a weakness, yes, but who else in his division even comes close to what he has accomplished over the past three years? As much as Baffert said he did better with more time off, I think the break between the Pacific and Breeders Cup Classics was just a bit too much. He might not have taken the big race, but I think his overall resume this year still warrants the Eclipse for his division.
Not to nitpick, but the Eclipse is a one-year, not three-year, award. And if by "division" you mean "older male", how do you rate him ahead of Wise Dan? Dan also lost only one race all year, on a last-minute change of surface, and at least he was a fighting second (and won his second BC). GOD, who I certainly agree had a good year overall, spit the bit in his biggest race. Just my opinion, but advantage Dan.
Quote from: Vic in Chicago on November 24, 2013, 05:29:40 PM
Quote from: General Assembly on November 23, 2013, 05:42:00 PM
As much as everyone seems to talk smack about this horse, he only lost ONE race in a year. He has a weakness, yes, but who else in his division even comes close to what he has accomplished over the past three years? As much as Baffert said he did better with more time off, I think the break between the Pacific and Breeders Cup Classics was just a bit too much. He might not have taken the big race, but I think his overall resume this year still warrants the Eclipse for his division.
Not to nitpick, but the Eclipse is a one-year, not three-year, award. And if by "division" you mean "older male", how do you rate him ahead of Wise Dan? Dan also lost only one race all year, on a last-minute change of surface, and at least he was a fighting second (and won his second BC). GOD, who I certainly agree had a good year overall, spit the bit in his biggest race. Just my opinion, but advantage Dan.
Preach, brother!
I will preface this by saying that Wise Dan is (and has been for the past two years) my favorite horse in training. Last year I could make a case for Dan to get the older male as he won on more than one surface, but since this year he focused solely on turf I personally do not believe he belongs in discussion for that title. He is the top turf male again and he should take the division and Horse of the Year again. This year Game on Dude was considered the top older male from January until his flop in the Cup and I still think he should take the Eclipse.
Older male traditionally goes to a main track horse UNLESS there is no worthy main track horse and a stand out turf horse.
Some may argue that there is no worthy main track older male. I can understand that argument because GOD did not perform in the BC Classic.
I take the opinion that one race does not decide it for me.
GOD campaigned from early February to late November.
Wise Dan had a second remarkable year campaigning from mid-April to early November.
He is worthy of Horse of the Year. However, I think older male goes to Game On Dude.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 26, 2013, 01:59:15 PM
Older male traditionally goes to a main track horse UNLESS there is no worthy main track horse and a stand out turf horse.
Some may argue that there is no worthy main track older male. I can understand that argument because GOD did not perform in the BC Classic.
I take the opinion that one race does not decide it for me.
GOD campaigned from early February to late November.
Wise Dan had a second remarkable year campaigning from mid-April to early November.
He is worthy of Horse of the Year. However, I think older male goes to Game On Dude.
If you take the position that the Older Male Eclipse should go to the best
dirt horse (not illogical since there is a separate turf horse award), no question Dude is the one.
Quote from: Man o Taz on November 26, 2013, 01:59:15 PM
Older male traditionally goes to a main track horse UNLESS there is no worthy main track horse and a stand out turf horse.
Some may argue that there is no worthy main track older male. I can understand that argument because GOD did not perform in the BC Classic.
One race should not cause all his wins to be ignored. I get it, he didn't just lose but flopped but still if one race can make him unworthy of Older horse, then something is wrong with picture in my opinion.. same with Mucho Macho Man getting older horse off one win (since some were mentioning him).
Actually, despite my disappointment (and criticism) of The Dude in the BC, I'm a big fan of his. And I hope he comes out smokin' Friday at CD and - at least partially - redeems himself.
He's in PP #1, so I hope Mike Smith guns him out right to the front, and he wires the field, as he did so many times this year.
The Clark is really interesting this year because two Eclipse Awards may be on the line. If the Dude wins, he probably wins best older horse. And if Will Take Charge wins, he probably wins best 3-year-old.
Go Dude!
Hopefully I don't jinx him, but I am expecting a pretty decisive win from 'Dude in the Clark.
He's cutting back to his preferred 9F (and 77% win rate) from 10F (and 45% win rate). Plus, with the exception of outsiders Our Double Play (prefers slop and won't get it) and possibly Jaguar Paw (likely the longest shot on the board) there is no one to go with him early...
I dont think its the speed that kills em but its when more than 1 runs with him like in the bc classic
Game On Dude ran a good Clark, but he got run down by a better horse. Will Take Charge has turned into a beast.
Quote from: Zenyatta on December 01, 2013, 11:55:21 AM
Game On Dude ran a good Clark, but he got run down by a better horse. Will Take Charge has turned into a beast.
I fervently hope WTC stays in training next year!
Me too. He has really turned the corner; Lukas finally has a horse that is tough enough to withstand his shotgun approach, lol (no disrespect to Lukas- I actually like him).
Quote from: Zenyatta on December 01, 2013, 11:55:21 AM
Game On Dude ran a good Clark, but he got run down by a better horse. Will Take Charge has turned into a beast.
Indeed. No excuses - although I always think the Churchill surface can be a bit quirky, but I haven't read anything about it being problematic.
Well done by WTC - hope to see him next year.