The news we've been dreading just came through, announced on TVG: Triple Crown winner Justify has been retired.
Frack. >:(
The only thing they really could have done was give him 90 days and then maybe you could go in the Malibu and the Pegasus. That wouldn't have increased his value a dime though, so what's the point? I was against the idea of running him in the Derby in the first place—I understand why they did it, but it wasn't the best move in terms of longevity. Of course once the Derby was won it was in for a penny, in for a pound. I was glad when he won the Preakness because then I knew we'd see him in the Belmont. Win, lose or draw I figured the Belmont would be it.
Quote from: curtis on July 25, 2018, 11:56:25 AM
The only thing they really could have done was give him 90 days and then maybe you could go in the Malibu and the Pegasus.
That's what I was hoping for, but it is what it is...
Even though Justify did win the Triple Crown, I feel like we never really got a real idea of how good he was...or wasn't. Only ran six times, never faced older. It's a flimsy race record, even for modern times.
His record pales when compared to other TC winners. Even Count Fleet, who was injured in his Belmont win and never raced again, ran (if I remember Watchmaker's article correctly) 18 times.
American Pharoah was retired promptly after his Classic win, but at least he ran three times after the TC and beat older.
I'm not saying Justify wasn't brilliant in his six races, but IMHO, racing historians are going to spend a fair amount of time asking; 'What was Justify, really?'
Quote from: BaroqueAgain1 on July 25, 2018, 12:22:57 PM
Even though Justify did win the Triple Crown, I feel like we never really got a real idea of how good he was...or wasn't. Only ran six times, never faced older. It's a flimsy race record, even for modern times.
His record pales when compared to other TC winners. Even Count Fleet, who was injured in his Belmont win and never raced again, ran (if I remember Watchmaker's article correctly) 18 times.
American Pharoah was retired promptly after his Classic win, but at least he ran three times after the TC and beat older.
I'm not saying Justify wasn't brilliant in his six races, but IMHO, racing historians are going to spend a fair amount of time asking; 'What was Justify, really?'
You're never going to know what a horse is in 6 starts. I was talking to my wife about Justify the other day and said if the Ghost of Classics Future, came to me in mid-January and said, "There's going to be a horse who'll make its' first start in February 18 and when he wins your jaw will drop, he'll go through a condition, he'll win the SA Derby and then the TC." I wouldn't have asked, "How will he compare?" I wouldn't have been able to wrap my head around it. He was pretty special and one of thirteen, whether he could beat Assault or Citation or American Pharoah isn't relevant. Could they do what he did?
I'm not going to try to compare him to other years. The horse ran against the opponents he ran against. It is useless to say he couldn't beat whoever he did not beat from other years. He never ran against them.
What he did was beat every horse that ran against him
That was enough.
Could he have done what they did?
Like run more than 6 races? Beat older horses,race as a 4yr old, race and win on turf,inspire children ,have books written about him and his connections
Spiro
Who knows.
He did what he was told to do, with a flourish.
You can't blame the horse for cowardice, blame the owners.
All the others did what they were told to do to.
I dont blame the horse or the owners or the trainer, they had a nice run with him, they put him on the self because we was nowhere close to a world beater that other TC winners were!
Blame the owners for cowardice????
Shirley, you jest.
The insurance annual premium to keep running was about $4,200,000.
On what planet does it make sense to keep running for another trophy for the mantle?
As we all know, being the good handicappers that we are, handicapping any given race is difficult enough to review the 10 horses facing each other in the 7th race.......yet for some unknown reason, those same otherwise bright individuals find it necessary to handicap horses that ran in 2018 with 1979 and 1973 and beyond while trying to determine who is best.....an impossible endeavor.
I do think Curtis was on the right path for whatever its worth.....NONE, NADA, ZERO of the others in the conversations could have done what Justify did.
Might as well settle a few other discussions first......Ford or Chevy, Maryann or Ginger to name a couple without getting political ;)
Quote from: stark on July 25, 2018, 02:25:19 PM
Blame the owners for cowardice????
Shirley, you jest.
The insurance annual premium to keep running was about $4,200,000.
On what planet does it make sense to keep running for another trophy for the mantle?
As we all know, being the good handicappers that we are, handicapping any given race is difficult enough to review the 10 horses facing each other in the 7th race.......yet for some unknown reason, those same otherwise bright individuals find it necessary to handicap horses that ran in 2018 with 1979 and 1973 and beyond while trying to determine who is best.....an impossible endeavor.
I do think Curtis was on the right path for whatever its worth.....NONE, NADA, ZERO of the others in the conversations could have done what Justify did.
Might as well settle a few other discussions first......Ford or Chevy, Maryann or Ginger to name a couple without getting political ;)
You know when I was living in so. CA near Hollywood, I preferred Ginger, but now that I've bought a farm.......
Quote from: Raven on July 25, 2018, 02:14:23 PM
All the others did what they were told to do to.
I dont blame the horse or the owners or the trainer, they had a nice run with him, they put him on the self because we was nowhere close to a world beater that other TC winners were!
And your proof of this is? Before the TC started, the prevailing consensus was what a strong, deep crop this was so now one horse proved to be the best and because of simple, present day economics, he can't possibly compare to twelve other horses through history, eleven of which raced in completely incomparable eras? Sometimes, after reading some of these boards, I think the real money isn't in betting on these horses it's in designing a stylish tinfoil hat, the kind you could wear on Derby Day, to Saratoga or to Del Mar Opening Day.
No need to get personal
That's my opinion and you can have yours
As for proof, we will never have one, either way.
Some people might put him on a pedestal, but I'm not one of them. He was regressing right after the Derby
I really don't get the "get personal" comments when having a good discussion.
Are we suppose to agree on everything so that it's not personal? Makes no sense to me.
Question.....when I read that some dummy wagered $50,000 to show on a mortal lock and lost, is it a personal comment or just a difference of opinion in wagering strategies if I refer to him as a dummy?
Anyhoo......this from the LA TIMES newsletter....
We asked our resident racing historian, Jon White, to look at how history will judge Justify.
"That Justify had only six lifetime starts no doubt is going to be viewed as a negative vis-a-vis his standing among the all-time greats in the eyes of many. That he never raced against older horses, unlike fellow recent Triple Crown winner American Pharoah, also will be held against Justify by many. American Pharoah did face older horses in his final career start when he put an exclamation point on his racing career with a 6 1/2-length victory in the Breeders' Cup Classic.
"On the other hand, it is a plus for Justify that he retires from racing with an aura of invincibility. It's also to Justify's credit that he managed to accomplish as much as he did in a relatively short period of time. The ride he took racing on from his debut victory at Santa Anita on Feb. 18 to his Belmont Stakes triumph on June 9 was extraordinary. He became the first Triple Crown winner who did not race at 2. He was the first Kentucky Derby winner who did not start at 2 since Apollo in 1882. He also broke the record for defeating the most total starters in the three Triple Crown races. Justify beat a total of 35 other starters in the three races, breaking the record of 32 set by War Admiral in 1937.
"Of this country's 13 Triple Crown winners, the only one besides Justify to not race after the Belmont Stakes was Count Fleet. Count Fleet was retired after he rapped an ankle during his 25-length tour de force in the 1943 Belmont. Despite not racing after the Belmont, Count Fleet ranked No. 5 on the BloodHorse magazine's list of the Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century, behind only No. 1 Man o' War, No. 2 Secretariat, No. 3 Citation and No. 4 Kelso.
"But while both Justify and Count Fleet were retired after the Belmont, Count Fleet's body of work certainly was much more robust than Justify's. Count Fleet won a total of 16 races compared to just six for Justify. Count Fleet was the 2-year-old male champion. Justify did not even race at 2.
"It is clear that Justify was 'a phenomenal talent,' as Bob Baffert said after the colt won the Santa Anita Derby in only his third lifetime start. But many understandably will downgrade Justify to some extent for not racing more than he did when trying to determine where he belongs among the sport's all-time greats."
http://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-horse-racing-newsletter-20180725-htmlstory.html
:lightbulb:
Quote from: Raven on July 25, 2018, 03:53:07 PM
No need to get personal
That's my opinion and you can have yours
As for proof, we will never have one, either way.
Some people might put him on a pedestal, but I'm not one of them. He was regressing right after the Derby
I do apologize if you interpreted that I was labeling you with my comment. I did qualify it with "these boards," but I should have been more specific in terms of not referring to you personally.
The sport is based on disagreements, that's fine. Justify doesn't get the respect he deserves, in my opinion, for example his name is misspelled on the header for this thread. Things are different now all around. I'm a Dodger fan and a big Clayton Kershaw fan. Guys like Koufax, Drysdale and Sutton—Hall of Famers, all—were expected to and usually went 9 innings. Kershaw goes 7 and is breaking down physically at barely 30 years of age. Still a great pitcher though, just a different context.
Be well!
Curtis,
does that mean Justify could lose by a length and it would be considered a "quality start" by today's standards vs. yesteryear?
Quote from: stark on July 26, 2018, 08:59:48 AM
Curtis,
does that mean Justify could lose by a length and it would be considered a "quality start" by today's standards vs. yesteryear?
I'm not sure I'm completely qualified to answer that. You might want to consult Stewart Elliot unless 2004 qualifies as yesteryear.
:forruffian:
My horse loving heart agrees with retirement :girlkiss:
Because he has proven himself
By winning the Triple Crown undefeated
He has done it in the slop
He has done it on a dry track
He has faced and defeated all competition
:celebrate:
There is no way I would take a chance on a break down ... :'(
...or death of such a wonderful horse!!!
Winning another race With the risk of a breakdown or death..
In my opinion is never worth that chance!
:lightbulb:
Quote from: curtis on July 26, 2018, 08:42:19 AM
:lightbulb:I do apologize if you interpreted that I was labeling you with my comment. I did qualify it with "these boards," but I should have been more specific in terms of not referring to you personally.
The sport is based on disagreements, that's fine. Justify doesn't get the respect he deserves, in my opinion, for example his name is misspelled on the header for this thread. Things are different now all around. I'm a Dodger fan and a big Clayton Kershaw fan. Guys like Koufax, Drysdale and Sutton—Hall of Famers, all—were expected to and usually went 9 innings. Kershaw goes 7 and is breaking down physically at barely 30 years of age. Still a great pitcher though, just a different context.
Be well!
No need to apologize. The word that prompted me to respond that way was 'You" in relation to the tinfoil hat
Peace
I can see that. I should have worded it "that one could wear." My wife proofreads my creative writing but as yet, not internet rants.😉
Good grief...I can't believe I misspelled Justify's name when I started this thread. :-[ I KNOW better, and I'm usually much better at proofreading my posts. I corrected the OP, but the mistake will live on in the responses.
I blame the heat; my brain has been parboiled these last few days. I could probably get my own name wrong.
:forruffian:
BAROQUE Chirps
"... I blame the heat; my brain has been parboiled these last few days
. I could probably get my own name wrong.
RUFFIAN HAS ANOTHER EXPLANATION.... :lightbulb:
SHE CALLS IT = HAVING A "BLONDE MOMENT" :happy:
Who's next?? Stall 33 in Bob Baffert's @santaanitapark barn has been home to American Pharoah, Arrogate and most recently JUSTIFY. Talk about high priced real estate...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjD7bAaUwAAYD22.jpg)
Quote from: stark on July 26, 2018, 05:59:24 PM
Who's next?? Stall 33 in Bob Baffert's @santaanitapark barn has been home to American Pharoah, Arrogate and most recently JUSTIFY. Talk about high priced real estate...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjD7bAaUwAAYD22.jpg)
Those barns really NEED to be updated - YIKES = Hollywood was better than that!
Maybe he can lease the stall to Koriner's Paddock Pick, who beat the Baff's chalk rather easily the other day...
Quote from: peeptoad on July 27, 2018, 02:40:00 AM
Maybe he can lease the stall to Koriner's Paddock Pick, who beat the Baff's chalk rather easily the other day...
Yeah, and all he could do was get 2nd and 3rd in that G2 the other day. I'm thinkin' a gofundme might be in order, those house rentals in Del Mar aren't cheap.
Woe is Baffert... maybe he can donate his Gofundme profits to my retirement account. ;)
Dusty, you may be right about those barns. From what I can see in that photo, the barn is all-wood construction. IIRC, Hollywood Parks' barns were concrete block, much safer in protecting against a devastating barn fire. :(
As far as a new occupant of that particular stall, maybe it's time for a filly to fill that space. Baffert's Pioneerof the Nile filly, Mother Mother, looks to be a juvenile with a ton of potential.
That filly has a semi load of concrete block of potemtial.