2015 Eclipse Awards

[Man o Taz]

Here is what I am thinking in several categories...finish them later...

Horse of the Year
American Pharoah by acclamation. Will there even be any other horses voted in? Beholder?

Older Male
Honor Code
Record: 6-3-0-2
Next Race: Retired
Signature Races: G1 Whitney Handicap, G1 Metropolitan Handicap, G2 Gulfstream Park Handicap

Tonalist
Record: 6-2-2-1
Next Race: Cigar Mile
Signature Wins: G1 Jockey Club Gold Cup, G3 Westchester Stakes

Liam's Map
Record: 4-3-1-0
Next Race: Retired
Signature Wins: G1 BC Dirt Mile, G1 Woodward Stakes


Older Female
Beholder[/u]
Race Record:5-5-0-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Zenyatta, G1 Pacific Classic, G1 Clement Hirsch, G3 Adoration Stakes

Does Beholder win the division unanimously? Tepin is a strong choice. If not, who are the other two? Stopchargingmaria with 1 G1 win in the BC or Sheer Drama with 2 G1 wins at 10 and 9 furlongs.

Tepin
Race Record: 7-5-2-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 BC Mile, G1 First Lady Stakes, G1 Just A Game, G2 Distaff Turf Mile

Sheer Drama
Race Record: 8-3-4-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Personal Ensign, G1 Delaware handicap, G2 Royal Delta

Stopchargingmaria
Race Record: 5-3-1-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 BC Distaff, G3 Shuvee Handicap, G3 Allaire Dupont Distaff

Three Year Old Male
American Pharoah
Is this by acclamation or are there other entries?

Frosted

Race Record:8-2-3-1
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Wood Memorial, G2 Pennsylvania Derby

Keen Ice
Race Record: 8-1-1-2
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Travers Stakes

Three Year Old Filly
I'm A Chatterbox
Race Record: 8-4-2-1
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Pennsylvania Derby, G2 Fairgrounds Oaks, G3 Rachel Alexandra1

Cavorting
Race Record: 5-3-0-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Test, G2 Prioress

Curalina
Race Record: 6-3-1-2
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Coaching Club American Oaks, G1 Acorn Stakes

Lady Eli
Race Record: 3-3-0-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Belmont Oaks, G3 Appalachian

Lovely Maria
Race Record: 8-3-2-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Ashland Stakes, G1 Kentucky Oaks

[peeptoad]

I think Tonalist may be more likely for the Cigar Mile rather than the Clark, unless Clement had a change in plans. That looks like it's going to be a good rendition of the race this year.
Regardless I think Honor Code for older male is appropriate.  Why reward Liam's map for taking the easy path, although he beats HC any day in the brilliance department. Overall Honor Code has better wins on record.

eta: you also forgot the Whitney on Honor Code's resume.I'd say that trumps Liam since in their only head to head meeting HC defeated him.

[afleetphil]

Taz,

Honor Code won the Whitney also. :chickendance:

[curtis]

I think Tonalist may be more likely for the Cigar Mile rather than the Clark, unless Clement had a change in plans. That looks like it's going to be a good rendition of the race this year.
Regardless I think Honor Code for older male is appropriate.  Why reward Liam's map for taking the easy path, although he beats HC any day in the brilliance department. Overall Honor Code has better wins on record.

eta: you also forgot the Whitney on Honor Code's resume.I'd say that trumps Liam since in their only head to head meeting HC defeated him.

By not contesting the Cigar Mile or the Clark, any of those Older Males are taking the easy path, if they're sound.  In fact, I don't understand why American Pharoah isn't competing in the Cigar Mile.  It's a one-turn mile, saddle him up and let him roll.  Hopefully he has 25-30 years or so to recover.  If Tonalist wins, I'd give him the award for not standing in his stall.  Don't reward connections for standing around and muttering "Dare I eat a peach."

[peeptoad]

By not contesting the Cigar Mile or the Clark, any of those Older Males are taking the easy path, if they're sound. In fact, I don't understand why American Pharoah isn't competing in the Cigar Mile.  It's a one-turn mile, saddle him up and let him roll.  Hopefully he has 25-30 years or so to recover.  If Tonalist wins, I'd give him the award for not standing in his stall.  Don't reward connections for standing around and muttering "Dare I eat a peach."

Well, yes, this is true if the goal is the year end award. I guess for most it might be, but maybe some more than others. ?
If Tonalist runs in the Cigar Mile and finishes up the track I don't think that exactly aids his cause, even if one is taking he stance of not rewarding the horse that doesn't even try... in that case the horse that stayed in the barn had the overall better record, beat Tonalist twice prior, and then wouldn't have another loss on his resume. ? OTOH, if Tonalist wins that gives him another G1, matching HC's 2 G1s and then the argument becomes stronger. I still think HC would get since he beat Tonalist all three times they met on the track this year...
I don't know... just thinking aloud. These awards are pretty purely subjective right now anyway.

[Man o Taz]

By not contesting the Cigar Mile or the Clark, any of those Older Males are taking the easy path, if they're sound.  In fact, I don't understand why American Pharoah isn't competing in the Cigar Mile.  It's a one-turn mile, saddle him up and let him roll.  Hopefully he has 25-30 years or so to recover.  If Tonalist wins, I'd give him the award for not standing in his stall.  Don't reward connections for standing around and muttering "Dare I eat a peach."

Well I would love to see American Pharoah in this race. However, despite not beginning the year until mid-March he did race 8 times, 7 of them G1s and he won 6 of them. He has nothing left to prove in my mind. Sure some want to suggest that if he had been pressed with a faster pace he would have caved, but this ignores that there were explanations for his loss in the Travers Stakes. HIs win in the Breeders Cup Classic showed that the Travers was an aberration. No way he ever loses to Keen Ice again. 

And for that matter, where are Keen Ice and Frosted? Why aren't they in this race? Granted they both are bred for further, but this is the last marquee race of the year in NY.

Regarding the suggestion that Tonalist over Honor Code if he wins the Cigar Mile, I just think the other races had better fields, more prestige, and Honor Code finished ahead of Tonalist in each race. Now, because Honor Code has been retired, he is to be stigmatized because he is not in the gate?

If Tonalist wanted year end honors he should enter the Clark Handicap and win a race at Churchill Downs, outside of NY. Honor Code did that with his win in the G2 Gulfstream Park Handicap. Tonalist still has yet to get a graded stakes win outside of Belmont Park. Granted Aqueduct is a baby step, but if his team really wanted to demonstrate that Tonalist should get the older male award they should put to rest the speculation that he cannot win outside of NY. We shall see who Tonalist's competition ends up being.

[Man o Taz]

Taz,

Honor Code won the Whitney also. :chickendance:

Thanks - you an peeptoad are keeping me honest. :-)

[curtis]

Well, yes, this is true if the goal is the year end award. I guess for most it might be, but maybe some more than others. ?
If Tonalist runs in the Cigar Mile and finishes up the track I don't think that exactly aids his cause, even if one is taking he stance of not rewarding the horse that doesn't even try... in that case the horse that stayed in the barn had the overall better record, beat Tonalist twice prior, and then wouldn't have another loss on his resume. ? OTOH, if Tonalist wins that gives him another G1, matching HC's 2 G1s and then the argument becomes stronger. I still think HC would get since he beat Tonalist all three times they met on the track this year...
I don't know... just thinking aloud. These awards are pretty purely subjective right now anyway.

They always have been, which is why Exceller in 1978, Great Communicator in 1988 and Gentlemen in 1997 got nothing for their efforts.

My point is that if connections are rewarded for not running, then the system is broken.  Look at 2013.  Going into the BC there was minimal, if any, talk of Wise Dan being Horse of the Year.  Then he wins the Mile and Game On Dude runs poorly in the Classic.  Suddenly Wise Dan's the favorite for the award.  There was no clear cut favorite for the award, really.  I said on here that Wise Dan should have went to the Clark--a race he had won in the past--to face off with Will Take Charge and Game On Dude who were realistically his biggest rivals for the award.  The response, for the most part, was that running in the Clark could only hurt him and not help him.  He did sit out, the other two engaged in a very good race, and Wise Dan won the award.  This thinking is what is wrong with the whole system, in my opinion.  The two best, most talented older dirt males that ran this year, in my opinion, are Shared Belief and Liam's Map and the latter is part of the problem.  Neither horse will get much consideration for the Eclipse, however because voters tend to count up G1's.  It seems to me there is still some Gr.1's to be run, that count.

[curtis]

Well I would love to see American Pharoah in this race. However, despite not beginning the year until mid-March he did race 8 times, 7 of them G1s and he won 6 of them. He has nothing left to prove in my mind. Sure some want to suggest that if he had been pressed with a faster pace he would have caved, but this ignores that there were explanations for his loss in the Travers Stakes. HIs win in the Breeders Cup Classic showed that the Travers was an aberration. No way he ever loses to Keen Ice again. 

And for that matter, where are Keen Ice and Frosted? Why aren't they in this race? Granted they both are bred for further, but this is the last marquee race of the year in NY.

Regarding the suggestion that Tonalist over Honor Code if he wins the Cigar Mile, I just think the other races had better fields, more prestige, and Honor Code finished ahead of Tonalist in each race. Now, because Honor Code has been retired, he is to be stigmatized because he is not in the gate?

If Tonalist wanted year end honors he should enter the Clark Handicap and win a race at Churchill Downs, outside of NY. Honor Code did that with his win in the G2 Gulfstream Park Handicap. Tonalist still has yet to get a graded stakes win outside of Belmont Park. Granted Aqueduct is a baby step, but if his team really wanted to demonstrate that Tonalist should get the older male award they should put to rest the speculation that he cannot win outside of NY. We shall see who Tonalist's competition ends up being.

Sure, why does he need to be retired now instead of the end of the month?  It's not like it's going to impact next year's breeding season.  He's supposed to be the country's best miler and he's passing up a Gr.1 mile?  He's a horse who finished the year on a two race losing streak one at odds on.  That's award worthy.

[Man o Taz]

Male Sprinter

Runhappy
Race Record: 5-5-0-0
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 BC Sprint over Private Zone; G1 King's Bishop, G3 Phoenix Stakes

Private Zone
Race Record: 6-3-2-1
Next Race: Unknown
Signature Wins: G1 Forego, G2 Churchill Stakes, G3 Belmont Sprint Championship

Rock Fall
Race Record: 5-5-0-0
Signature Wins: G1 Vosburgh, G1 Alfred G. Vanderbilt, G2 True North

This would not just be a sentimental vote. Rock Fall actually possesses the strongest graded stakes resume for the award. He contested only sprint races. He won all of his races. And he competed on the tough NY circuit against older horses the entire year besting Salutos Amigos, a good quality horse, twice.   

If Private Zone were to contest and win the Cigar Mile over Tonalist I would give him the champion sprinter eclipse. He would have won 4 graded stakes. 2 G1s and raced from March to the end of November while Runhappy would have raced from July to November. Can Private Zone win the Eclipse even without contesting the Cigar Mile? He finished well in all his races (3 G1s vs. 2 for Runhappy) which were all graded stakes race and he entered more of the top sprint races than Runhappy did. Also, there is some controversy that is following Runhappy and he could lose some votes because of it. I think Runhappy will win, but it could get interesting.

[Man o Taz]

They always have been, which is why Exceller in 1978, Great Communicator in 1988 and Gentlemen in 1997 got nothing for their efforts.

My point is that if connections are rewarded for not running, then the system is broken.  Look at 2013.  Going into the BC there was minimal, if any, talk of Wise Dan being Horse of the Year.  Then he wins the Mile and Game On Dude runs poorly in the Classic.  Suddenly Wise Dan's the favorite for the award.  There was no clear cut favorite for the award, really.  I said on here that Wise Dan should have went to the Clark--a race he had won in the past--to face off with Will Take Charge and Game On Dude who were realistically his biggest rivals for the award.  The response, for the most part, was that running in the Clark could only hurt him and not help him.  He did sit out, the other two engaged in a very good race, and Wise Dan won the award.  This thinking is what is wrong with the whole system, in my opinion.  The two best, most talented older dirt males that ran this year, in my opinion, are Shared Belief and Liam's Map and the latter is part of the problem.  Neither horse will get much consideration for the Eclipse, however because voters tend to count up G1's.  It seems to me there is still some Gr.1's to be run, that count.

The system is broken and your point is well taken all things being equal. You gave one illustration why. Here is another. Princess of Sylmar stepped up and contested the BC Distaff and lost her champion three year old female award to Beholder. If she had stayed in the barn she would have won the award. I still thought that she should win it based upon the body of her work, but c'est la vie.

I think my point and maybe that of others is that all things are not equal if you have a horse that finishes behind another horse in 3 races that year against stronger fields with 1 field being a championship race. Then that other horse goes out and gets his stakes wins against weaker fields than the fields that Tonalist finished behind Honor Code in.

Wise Dan was 16th on the 1st NTRA poll in 2012, the year he won Horse of the Year. Game On Dude, as you note, was 1st.
In early October, Wise Dan took the lead in the NTRA poll from Game On Dude.
In mid-October, Wise Dan extended his lead over Game On Dude in the NTRA poll.

Wise Dan did not come out of nowhere. The race was between Game On Dude and Wise Dan for horse of the year since the end of summer.

In July, Wise Dan was still back on the poll, but he had yet to contest Woodbine Mile and the Shadwell Turf Mile. As soon as he won these races, he passed Game On Dude in the poll. During the time Wise Dan was continuing his winning streak Game On Dude had split his two races with a 2nd in the Pacific Classic and a 1st in the Awesome Again. Also, Wise Dan did follow-up his Clark Handicap win with a strong 2nd place finish on dirt in the Stephen Foster to Ron The Greek who had won the Santa Anita Handicap. So, in the end Wise Dan had 3 G1 wins, a G2 win, a G3 win, and a runner-up finish in the G1 Stephen Foster to 4th place BC Classic finisher Ron The Greek (a 2 G1 winner that year) to go against  Game On Dude's 2 G1 wins and 2 G2 wins and an awful showing in the BC Classic. Now, I wanted Game On Dude to win champion older male that year. I thought he was more deserving. He raced the entire year and did well in all his races save the BC Classic and DWC and all his races were on dirt. But I did support Wise Dan for HOTY.

[peeptoad]

They always have been, which is why Exceller in 1978, Great Communicator in 1988 and Gentlemen in 1997 got nothing for their efforts.

My point is that if connections are rewarded for not running, then the system is broken.  Look at 2013.  Going into the BC there was minimal, if any, talk of Wise Dan being Horse of the Year.  Then he wins the Mile and Game On Dude runs poorly in the Classic.  Suddenly Wise Dan's the favorite for the award.  There was no clear cut favorite for the award, really.  I said on here that Wise Dan should have went to the Clark--a race he had won in the past--to face off with Will Take Charge and Game On Dude who were realistically his biggest rivals for the award.  The response, for the most part, was that running in the Clark could only hurt him and not help him.  He did sit out, the other two engaged in a very good race, and Wise Dan won the award.  This thinking is what is wrong with the whole system, in my opinion.  The two best, most talented older dirt males that ran this year, in my opinion, are Shared Belief and Liam's Map and the latter is part of the problem.  Neither horse will get much consideration for the Eclipse, however because voters tend to count up G1's.  It seems to me there is still some Gr.1's to be run, that count.

I completely agree with the bolded. IMHO the crux of this problem lies with the Breeder's Cup itself. It's supposed to be a "year end" championship meet, but the problem is it's neither the end of the year nor the end of top tier races for the year. Obviously not all G1 races are equal, but I think if there were fewer G1 races overall they would become higher caliber events and would force the top horses to run against each more often. It might have the effect of making the divisions more clear cut in terms of the individual horses.
I agree on Liam's Map being the most brilliantly talented. I think he probably trumps every dirt male horse that ran this year, including American Pharoah. Brilliance doesn't always equate to a stellar resume, and it often doesn't equate to consistency or frequent appearances.
Unless there are actual rules for Eclipse voting these discussion will continue on indefinitely (not that that is necessarily a bad thing).

[Man o Taz]

Excellent point - peeptoad on G1 races, particularly post BC.

[Man o Taz]

Older Male
Honor Code
Record: 6-3-0-2
Next Race: Retired
Signature Races: G1 Whitney Handicap, G1 Metropolitan Handicap, G2 Gulfstream Park Handicap

Tonalist
Record: 7-3-2-1
Signature Wins: G1 Cigar Mile, G1 Jockey Club Gold Cup, G3 Westchester Stakes

Liam's Map
Record: 4-3-1-0
Next Race: Retired
Signature Wins: G1 BC Dirt Mile, G1 Woodward Stakes

Effinex
Record: 8-4-1-1 (stakes record - 7-3-1-1)
Signature Wins: G1 Clark Handicap, G2 Suburban, G3 Excelsior

There is some talk about Effinex. I do not see it. But some do.

[peeptoad]

I still think Honor Code should get the Eclipse, despite Tonalist's very nice victory last weekend. The race records of all 3 main candidates are all fairly similar, but HC beat both of his foes on the track at various points during the year (the Whitney is really the clincher here imo), so I think think he should get it.
I don't buy the arguments from people saying Liam's Map appeared to be more talented (or brilliant), so he should get it. Honor Code beat him the only time they met and didn't feeb out into the Dirt Mile.

= Liam trumped

Respect to Effinex, but I don't think he should even be part of the discussion.