Should the Triple Crown Be Changed?

[Man o Taz]

I have to send a vote of appreciation and respect to all the posters here.

I am certain that there are other sites out there that are focused on the remarks made by Mr. Coburn right after the race, which he confirmed in a press conference suggesting that changes need to be made to way the Triple Crown is run.

Not a word about it here.

Some of what was said in those remarks is absolutely correct. Tonalist was well rested. Had entrants in the Belmont Stakes been restricted to Derby eligible horses who also had run in the Preakness Stakes, we would have seen a Triple Crown since only two other horses would have been eligible and even with the injury, California Chrome finished ahead of those horses.

You folks are class acts and the reason I do not post on other sites.

People have long suggested that changes need to be made to the current format before we will ever see another Triple Crown winner.
I agree that we will likely never see another one under the current system.

However, I do not think that the current system will ever be changed.

Suggested changes have included:

1. Limiting the number of horses in the gate in the Kentucky Derby.

Result: California Chrome wins Kentucky Derby.

2. Restricting the horses that run in the Triple Crown races to those eligible to run in the Kentucky Derby.

Result: Medal Count wins Belmont Stakes if another horse, other than Matterhorn, steps on California Chrome's foot.

3. Restricting the horses that run in the Belmont Stakes to those eligible to run in the Kentucky Derby, who have also run in the Preakness Stakes.

This is Mr. Coburn's suggestion.

Result: California Chrome wins the Triple Crown, even if injured by another horse.

4. Changing the length of time between the Triple Crown races:

Results: Unknown.

a. Increasing the length of time between the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes to four weeks.
b. Increasing the length of time between all Triple Crown races to four weeks between each.
c. Increasing the length of time between the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness Stakes to three weeks.

5. Changing the distance of the Belmont Stakes.

What do you think?

[The Tin Man]

We know Steven personally and he's a really good guy. He's just a passionate guy who shoots from the hip and loves his horse beyond words. I'm sure he wanted his boy to win so badly and was SO disappointed for him that he saw himself as coming to the defense of and going to bat for his kid ...

His points were very salient. in my opinion ... just not worded too well ...

For what it's worth, he came out this morning with apologies for the delivery.

Steve called Robyn the other day and says he wants to get together with us for dinner or something on Los Alamitos Derby day ... Should be interesting! So happy for him and so proud of Junior! 

[serenassong]

I have to send a vote of appreciation and respect to all the posters here.

I am certain that there are other sites out there that are focused on the remarks made by Mr. Coburn right after the race, which he confirmed in a press conference suggesting that changes need to be made to way the Triple Crown is run.

Not a word about it here.

Some of what was said in those remarks is absolutely correct. Tonalist was well rested. Had entrants in the Belmont Stakes been restricted to Derby eligible horses who also had run in the Preakness Stakes, we would have seen a Triple Crown since only two other horses would have been eligible and even with the injury, California Chrome finished ahead of those horses.

You folks are class acts and the reason I do not post on other sites.

People have long suggested that changes need to be made to the current format before we will ever see another Triple Crown winner.
I agree that we will likely never see another one under the current system.

However, I do not think that the current system will ever be changed.

Suggested changes have included:

1. Limiting the number of horses in the gate in the Kentucky Derby.

Result: California Chrome wins Kentucky Derby.

2. Restricting the horses that run in the Triple Crown races to those eligible to run in the Kentucky Derby.

Result: Medal Count wins Belmont Stakes if another horse, other than Matterhorn, steps on California Chrome's foot.

3. Restricting the horses that run in the Belmont Stakes to those eligible to run in the Kentucky Derby, who have also run in the Preakness Stakes.

This is Mr. Coburn's suggestion.

Result: California Chrome wins the Triple Crown, even if injured by another horse.

4. Changing the length of time between the Triple Crown races:

Results: Unknown.

a. Increasing the length of time between the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes to four weeks.
b. Increasing the length of time between all Triple Crown races to four weeks between each.
c. Increasing the length of time between the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness Stakes to three weeks.

5. Changing the distance of the Belmont Stakes.

What do you think?

I have said this for years- it needs to be limited to 14, like the others. Too much traffic- and more times than not, the best horse does not win.  This year, the best horse did win. 

It has been suggested that there should be a 4 week gap between all races, Derby still first Saturday in May, then Preakness a month later and the Belmont a month later.  My only concern (as well as others) is it can get brutal hot in July around here - not so much the first 10 days or so of June- the heat with Big Brown was unusual.  If you do limit the field to only runners that have run both in the Derby and Preakness- under the current system- you could have so few runners- it may take away from the great accomplishment it should be- and you may even have a walkover if the rest come up with injuries- and that would be a shame indeed. 

There has to be so kind of middleground that will make it acceptable to all.

As far as the distance of the Belmont- no.  This is a test of stamina- and we need more of it in our bloodlines.  It really is a shame that Belmont winners as studs are not as prized as they should be and we are too focused on speed and looking good for the sales ring.  We need to strengthen our bloodlines, and perhaps add some of the German blood as well as a few steeplechase lines to give our horses the bottom that they need.   As far as training goes- look to what they do in Europe as a model.

I was upset that we did not get the TC, he is a very good horse and it would have done wonders for the racing stage.  He is very brave and has a big heart to finish 4th with that injury.

I did not mention anything about this earlier, because it is nice to come here and talk to people with more level heads.

[The Tin Man]

I did not mention anything about this earlier, because it is nice to come here and talk to people with more level heads.

I think I that's pretty much the goal of all of us who post here ... and the reason some of us only post here exclusively ...

To be a place where constructive and respectful diatribe can take place ... is very refreshing I think. 

[Man o Taz]

I agree with the 14 horse gate limit suggestion.

I know some others feel that there should be no limit.

One change which I also think should be required which would work toward the 14 number would be not that the 14 highest ranking points horses get in the gate...but all horses who earn 50 points or more get in the gate.

This would mean that only the best of the best are eligible to run in the Kentucky Derby.

I know this would likely have excluded horses like Mine That Bird, and others, but I continue to believe that running in the Kentucky Derby should be am earned privilege. 

Here is what the Derby plan would look like under my proposal...

Rank    Horse    Trainer    Points    Non-Restricted Stakes Earnings
1    California Chrome    Art Sherman    150    $782,250
2    Vicar's in Trouble    Mike Maker    120    $760,000
3    Dance With Fate    Peter Eurton    108    $600,000
4    Wicked Strong    Jimmy Jerkens    102    $630,000
5    Samraat    Rick Violette Jr.    100    $640,000
6    Danza    Todd Pletcher    100    $620,000
7    Hoppertunity    Bob Baffert    95    $576,000
8    Intense Holiday    Todd Pletcher    93    $527,500
9    Wildcat Red    Jose Garrofalo    90    $610,000
10    We Miss Artie    Todd Pletcher    60    $544,000
11    Ride on Curlin    Billy Gowan    55    $354,387
12    Chitu    Bob Baffert    54    $440,000
13    Tapiture    Steve Asmussen    52    $470,378

General a Rod and Medal County would have been excluded with 40 points.

I know Commanding Curve's connections would not be pleased, but some horses are always going to be excluded under any system.

[Delamont]

 I have no problem with what CC's owner said.  He's not a media-slick pro and he spoke from his heart in the heat of the moment.

But I don't believe the spacing of the races should be changed. 

As for the number and type of permitted entries .. I'd have to fully understand the pros and cons

[afleetphil]

As frustrated as I was on Saturday, the only change I would make is to have a 14 horse limit for the Derby. Too many traffic problems and many good horses get a compromised trip. You want the best horse to win the greatest race.

Everything else should remain the same. Length between races, distance.

I think without the hoof injury Chrome wins the Belmont even with the fresh horses that were thrown at him.

[Delamont]

As frustrated as I was on Saturday, the only change I would make is to have a 14 horse limit for the Derby. Too many traffic problems and many good horses get a compromised trip. You want the best horse to win the greatest race.

Everything else should remain the same. Length between races, distance.

I think without the hoof injury Chrome wins the Belmont even with the fresh horses that were thrown at him.

I do, too.

[The Tin Man]

Now all he can do is just further cement his dominance of this crop by kicking butt this year and next ... And I'm quite certain he will ...

Not sure if he's ready to take on the likes of older kids like The Dude and Palace Malice yet though.

[serenassong]

Now all he can do is just further cement his dominance of this crop by kicking butt this year and next ... And I'm quite certain he will ...

Not sure if he's ready to take on the likes of older kids like The Dude and Palace Malice yet though.

I know- it will be interesting to see how the rest of the year and his future unfolds- very excited.

And Honor Code is back to jogging- would LOVE to see these two lock horns once HC is back up to speed so to speak.

I think I would pass out from excitement watching that

[Man o Taz]

And Shared Belief.

Caleb Keller on TVG yesterday was discussing his predictions for the second half of 2014 from three year olds and his top three went:

1. Shared Belief
2. Danza
3. California Chrome
4. Tonalist

My list would have been slightly different. 

I would have kept California Chrome number 1 - but his point may be that Shared Belief will be running in many more races than California Chrome.

Chrome will be resting while Shared Belief is hopefully burning up the track on the East coast. I hope I will be seeing an awful lot of Mr. Ward and Mr. Hollendorfer this summer.

Shared Belief if healthy could have 6 more races this year vs. Chrome's max being 3, and I would say maybe just 2.

California Chrome Possible Schedule:
8/24 G1 Pacific Classic*
9/27 G1 Awesome Again
11/2 G1 Breeders Cup Classic

I do not have the Travers Stakes or the Pennsylvania Derby as a possibility because while it would give him a chance to face lesser company, I do not think he should ship again. I think he should be allowed to rest at home. I also do not think he should race in G2 company any more.  Of course, that limits his options to the more difficult Pacific Classic for his return race - which is why I think he'll be off until the Awesome Again. If I had my choice I'd have the Pennsylvania Derby be a G1 and let him run there...but again I do not like the shipping even if its just for a quick race.

Shared Belief possible schedule:
7/5/ G2 Los Alamitos Derby
7/27 G1 Haskell Invitational
8/23 G1 Travers Stakes
9/27 G1 Awesome Again/ 9/20 G2 Pennsylvania Derby
11/1 G1 Dirt Mile*/11/2 G1 Breeders Cup Classic
G1 Cigar Mile* option only if he runs in the Travers or BC Classic and does poorly at that distance.

[Man o Taz]

I have nothing new to add on the topic, but I did read some interesting columns on the subject agreeing with Mr. Coburn.

Whoa, Nellie...Maybe Coburn's right
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/racinghub/archive/2014/06/08/whoa-nellie-maybe-coburn-s-right.aspx

LIke it or not, Steve Coburn is right.
http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index.ssf/2014/06/mark_eckel_like_it_or_not_stev.html

Also,  a WFAN sports personality, Joe Bonigno, in speaking about the issue on Monday was very gracious referencing Mr. Coburn's comments and agreed with much that he said.

His position was not quite as strict as Mr. Coburns, namely requiring that Triple Crown entrants can only be horses who qualified with enough points to enter the Kentucky Derby.

[Raven]

Churchill sets the qualification system for the derby.  Right?
Why should the other tracks agree, that only horses that qualified to the Derby, can only enter in their own races.

[peeptoad]

No. We'll see another TC winner when a horse good enough (and one that has a clear separation from the rest of his crop in terms of talent) comes along. I don't think anything should be changed with regards to the races or spacing.

[curtis]

I agree with the 14 horse gate limit suggestion.

I know some others feel that there should be no limit.

One change which I also think should be required which would work toward the 14 number would be not that the 14 highest ranking points horses get in the gate...but all horses who earn 50 points or more get in the gate.

This would mean that only the best of the best are eligible to run in the Kentucky Derby.

I know this would likely have excluded horses like Mine That Bird, and others, but I continue to believe that running in the Kentucky Derby should be am earned privilege. 

Here is what the Derby plan would look like under my proposal...

Rank    Horse    Trainer    Points    Non-Restricted Stakes Earnings
1    California Chrome    Art Sherman    150    $782,250
2    Vicar's in Trouble    Mike Maker    120    $760,000
3    Dance With Fate    Peter Eurton    108    $600,000
4    Wicked Strong    Jimmy Jerkens    102    $630,000
5    Samraat    Rick Violette Jr.    100    $640,000
6    Danza    Todd Pletcher    100    $620,000
7    Hoppertunity    Bob Baffert    95    $576,000
8    Intense Holiday    Todd Pletcher    93    $527,500
9    Wildcat Red    Jose Garrofalo    90    $610,000
10    We Miss Artie    Todd Pletcher    60    $544,000
11    Ride on Curlin    Billy Gowan    55    $354,387
12    Chitu    Bob Baffert    54    $440,000
13    Tapiture    Steve Asmussen    52    $470,378

General a Rod and Medal County would have been excluded with 40 points.

I know Commanding Curve's connections would not be pleased, but some horses are always going to be excluded under any system.

I don't know of anyone but me that has been vocal, at any rate, about having no limitations on the Derby.  I have decided finally that I am totally against the point system.  While I under stand your attempt and desire to limit the field to something not rodeo like, General A Rod and Commanding Curve most certainly deserved to enter and a good case could have been made for Medal Count.  What you are essentially doing is making the Derby an invitational race.  There is nothing wrong with this, per se, but if such a thing is to be done there should be no nomination or entry fees.  I would be more than a little peeved if I campaigned a horse like General A Rod who continually was running well, if not winning, Derby preps while continuing the necessary payments to make my horse eligible, only to be told thanks for your money but we don't want your horse.