MOT's Derby Dozen

Started by Man o Taz, December 24, 2013, 08:42:44 AM

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Man o Taz

#135
DRF Top 20
http://www.drf.com/events/kentucky-derby-top-20-churchill-downs
1. California Chrome 3-1
2. Wicked Strong 8-1
3. Hoppertunity 10-1
4. Danza 12-1
5. Candy Boy 15-1
6. Dance With Fate 15-1
7. Intense Holiday 15-1
8. Samraat 15-1
9. Tapiture 15-1
10. Vicar's In Trouble 15-1
11. Wildcat Red 15-1
12. General a Rod 20-1
13. Medal Count 20-1
14. Ride on Curlin 20-1
15. Chitu 30-1
16. Uncle Sigh 30-1
17. We Miss Artie 30-1
18. Harry's Holiday 50-1
19. Ring Weekend 50-1
20. Vinceremos 50-1
"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

Man o Taz

#136
So now Ring Weekend is out...who's next?


Derby point totals follow pedigree, three year old stakes races in bold...

1. California Chrome (Lucky Pulpit and Love the Chase by Mr. Prospector's Not For Love) 150

G1 Santa Anita Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
G2 San Felipe, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
California Cup Derby, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

King Glorious Stakes, 7 furlong, cushion track
Graduation Stakes, 5 1/2 furlongs, polytrack

2.Wicked Strong (Hard Spun and Moyne Abbey by Charismatic) 104

G1 Wood Memorial, 9 furlongs, dirt
9th G2 Holy Bull Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

3rd G2 Remsen Stakes, 9 furlongs, dirt

3. Tapiture (Tapit and Free Spin by Olympio) 42

4th Arkansas Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
2nd G2 Rebel Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
G3 Southwest Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

G2 Kentucky Jockey Club, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
3rd G3 Iroquois, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

4. Samraat (Noble Causeway and Little Indian Girl by Indian Charlie) 100

2nd G1 Wood Memorial, 9 furlongs, dirt
G2 Gotham Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
G3 Withers Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

Damon Runyon Stakes, 8 furlongs, dirt

5. Vicar's In Trouble (Into Mischief and Vibrant by Vicar) 120

G2 Louisiana Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
4th G2 Risen Star, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
G3 Lecomte Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt


6. Hoppertunity (Any Given Saturday and Refugee by Unaccounted For) 93

2nd G1 Santa Anita Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
G2 Rebel Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt


7. Candy Boy (Candy Ride and She's and Eleven by In Excess) 30

3rd G1 Santa Anita Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
G2 Robert Lewis, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

2nd G1 Cash Call Futurity, 8.5 furlongs, cushion track

8. Wildcat Red (D'Wildcat and Racene by Miner's Mark) 90

2nd G1 Florida Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
G2 Fountain of Youth, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
G2 Hutcheson Stakes, 7 furlongs, dirt
2nd Gulfstream Park Derby, 8 furlongs, dirt

2nd Juvenile Sprint, 5 1/2 furlongs, dirt

9. General a Rod (Roman Ruler and Dynamite Eyes by Dynaformer) 40

G1 Florida Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
2nd G2 Fountain of Youth, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
Gulfstream Park Derby, 8 furlongs, dirt


10. Commanding Curve (Master Command (by A.P. Indy) and Mother by Lionhearted) 20

3rd G2 Louisiana Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
6th G2 Risen Star, 8.5 furlongs, dirt


11.  Ride On Curlin (Curlin and Magical Ride by Storm Cat) 55

2nd G1 Arkansas Derby, 9 furlongs, dirt
3rd G2 Rebel Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

3rd Street Sense, 8 furlongs, dirt
3rd G1 Champagne Stakes, 8 furlongs, dirt
4th G3 Iroquois, 8.5 furlongs, dirt

12. Dance with Fate (Two Step Salsa and Flirting with  Fate by Saint Ballado) 104

G1 Bluegrass Stakes, 9 furlongs, synthetic
2nd G3 El Camino Real Derby, 9 furlongs, synthetic

8th G1 BC Juvenile, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
2nd G1 Frontrunner Stakes, 8.5 furlongs, dirt
2nd G1 Del Mar Futurity,  7 furlongs. synthetic
"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

Man o Taz

I added Dance with Fate because I believe he is one of the best horses in the field.

He has a nice G1 win on synthetic and that has translated to running well at Churchill - not for every horse - but some.

While I still believe that his connections were correct in suggesting a three week turn around was not ideal if he takes to the surface and can turn around in three weeks he could have potential to win it. He certainly has the talent.

On my final list he could move up...because of this.

Right now I think there are four horses that could really win...CC, WS, CC, and DWF. I think the rest are running for place and show position and if these four perform well that could be your superfecta. 
"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

Man o Taz

Well, they say that Pletcher's top charges Danza and Intense Holiday have been doing well - and Medal Count as well.

I just have trouble believing in Medal Count. Just because a horse trains well over a track does not mean that he will run well over it in a race.

This is why I give much more credence to actual wins over a track...and why Tapiture and Commanding Curve remain strong possibilities for me.

Bleacher Report Superfecta
Joseph Zucker
April 28
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2043393-2014-kentucky-derby-odds-and-predictions-for-top-favorites-among-all-entries
1. Wicked Strong
2. California Chrome
3. Vicar's In Trouble
5. Danza

The Experts
http://www.kentuckyderby.com/racing-wagering/expert-picks

John Asher

1. California Chrome
2. Wicked Strong
3. Hoppertunity
4. Intense Holiday
5. Candy Boy
6. Ride On Curlin
7. Tapiture
8. Medal Count
9. Danza
10. Samraat

Jill Byrne
1. California Chrome
2. Intense Holiday
3. Hoppertunity
4. Candy Boy
5. Ride On Curlin
6. Wicked Strong
7. Tapiture
8. Medal Count
9. Danza
10. Samraat

Ed DeRosa
1. General a Rod
2. Ride On Curlin
3. Danza
4. Dance With Fate
5. Tapiture
6. California Chrome
7. Samraat
8. Intense Holiday
9. Vicar's In Trouble
10. Hoppertunity

James Scully
1. California Chrome
2. Hoppertunity
3. Samraat
4. Medal Count
5. Candy Boy
6. Wicked Strong
7. Danza
8. Intense Holiday
9. Ride on Curlin
10. General a Rod
"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

Man o Taz

Weather for the Kentucky Derby is supposed to be sunny and 71 degrees with a low of 50.

So, the California horses should not be compromised at all.

I was thinking this might be one factor which might call into question California Chrome's abilities...

That said - the surface itself is still an issue.
"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

The Tin Man

Quote from: Man o Taz on April 29, 2014, 01:23:12 PM
Weather for the Kentucky Derby is supposed to be sunny and 71 degrees with a low of 50.

So, the California horses should not be compromised at all.

I was thinking this might be one factor which might call into question California Chrome's abilities...

That said - the surface itself is still an issue.

Supposedly his pedigree is chock fun of mudders ... That being said ... I prefer all major races run under optimum weather conditions as I prefer to have the best overall horses be from whence the winner comes(in big races) ... I'm not big into fluke winners created through poor weather conditions.

Great weather ... optimum conditions and if they can beat Cali Chrome ... So be it ...

By the way ... Go Cali Chrome!!!  :chickendance:

Man o Taz

Glad to read you TTM. Now that Cairo Prince is out we are all in as "Chromies".

Wish we could have been at Los Alamitos for his last work.

"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

Delamont

Quote from: The Tin Man on April 29, 2014, 10:55:58 PM
Supposedly his pedigree is chock fun of mudders ... That being said ... I prefer all major races run under optimum weather conditions as I prefer to have the best overall horses be from whence the winner comes(in big races) ... I'm not big into fluke winners created through poor weather conditions.

Great weather ... optimum conditions and if they can beat Cali Chrome ... So be it ...

By the way ... Go Cali Chrome!!!  :chickendance:


Ohhhh...I dunno 'bout that.  I made some $ betting Ruler On Ice in the Belmont because I heard he was a mudder... ;)

But really I'd rather see ideal conditions too.

Somebody bet on the gray!

Senator L

I hope they tighten up the track

peeptoad

Quote from: The Tin Man on April 29, 2014, 10:55:58 PM
Supposedly his pedigree is chock fun of mudders ... That being said ... I prefer all major races run under optimum weather conditions as I prefer to have the best overall horses be from whence the winner comes(in big races) ... I'm not big into fluke winners created through poor weather conditions.

Great weather ... optimum conditions and if they can beat Cali Chrome ... So be it ...

By the way ... Go Cali Chrome!!!  :chickendance:

For a number of reason I am rooting for a fast track... hopefully it doesn't rain. BTW, Welsch said Chrome didn't look his best galloping over the muddy CD strip this morning. No way to tell if it's because of mud, shipping, or just his new surroundings though.

Man o Taz

Well, he could be experiencing a little bit of jetlag - since travelling is a new experience for him. We'll see.

It is strange that no one else seemed to have anything to say about it...

Here's a link to Jay Hovdey's pic of Califorina Chrome's misspelled saddlecloth...
https://twitter.com/JayHovdey

His work yesterday sounded like it was sharp...and then today it was supposed to be a bit more involved.

"My exercise rider said it was the best the horse has felt in a long time," Sherman said. "He enjoyed the track a lot. He was different, more aggressive since he got here. So that was a good sign."


http://www.drf.com/news/violette-savoring-second-derby-run
California Chrome arrived here Monday, jogged on Tuesday, then had a far more extensive training session on Wednesday. He first visited the paddock, then galloped 1 1/2 miles over a muddy surface.

When California Chrome first stepped on the track, he announced his presence with a loud whinny. And back at the barn after his training session, California Chrome struck several poses for photographers both during and after his bath.

"He's a character," said his trainer, Art Sherman.


Here are the Courier Journal's latest rankings...
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/horses/triple/derby/2014/03/20/derby-media-poll/6642811/

1. California Chrome.
2. Wicked Strong.
3. Hoppertunity.
4. Candy Boy.
5. Intense Holiday.
6. Samraat.
7. Danza.
8. Medal Count.
9. Ride on Curlin.
10. Tapiture.
"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

peeptoad

my final top 8:

1. Hoppertunity- has enough tactical speed from the gate to gain a decent stalking trip most of the time, speed-wise he is improving gradually, he can ship and win, and he is one of the few horses in the race that I think will truly appreciate the added furlong of the Derby. The cons mainly relate to the curse of Apollo and the fact that he's already run five times this year, a number matched only by Harry's Holiday. More races means less time between races... will the well run dry in the Derby? I am also a little concerned over the reports of him looking "stiff" while jogging this morning.

2. California Chrome- the single most likely winner of the race imo, but will be poor value no matter how you slice it. It remains to be seen exactly how I utilize him in wagers, but definitely the fastest horse in contention... his recent numbers are on par with what is (or was) the average winning speed figure for the Derby. Obviously he has some question marks, but so does every horse in the field. I do think drawing the 5-hole might force him to use more speed from the gate than he is accustomed to. He also absolutely needs to break well since I think he is only 1-4 after slow breaks.

3. Dance With Fate- wins the award for the best-looking horse in the field, but looks don't win the Derby. His synthetic form is rock solid, dirt is still a question, but he had an excellent work on the SA dirt last Saturday and galloped very strongly over the CD strip yesterday. All accounts says he looks good over the track and his running style will suit the projected pace scenario. He will be closing at the end. He ran the fastest closing 3/8 mile of any horse in the field last out in the Blue Grass (albeit over Polytrack).

4. Samraat- consistency and gameness are his best attributes; the drawbacks are speed figures that are slightly weaker than most of the top contenders, and no real turn of foot. On the plus side his grinding running style has won Derbys in the past, and he does seem to have enough tactical speed early on to position himself well. He's also a horse that I think shouldn't have too much trouble with the added ground, in part because he has an excellent foundation. In pp #6 he is outside of most of the other speed (save Chitu and Wildcat Red), which should give him a slight advantage.

5. Intense Holiday- I wasn't on board with guy until just a few days ago. I found his run in the Louisiana Derby a little lackluster, but he was positioned much closer to the early pace that day and he really prefers to drop back and make a late run. If they revert to that running style I think he will give a good account in the Derby. He is another that has been getting rave reviews about his work over the Churchill surface. He is Pletcher's best shot at a second Derby.

6. Wicked Strong- hard not to root for this guy with the charity he's attached to, and he does have one race that puts him in contention. He's a bit difficult to get a clear read on and I  have to assume that he just did not care for the Gulfstream surface since those two races are sort of outliers on his resume.The main negative is his running style since it may be hard for him to avoid traffic with 19 others to watch out for, but should finish strongly. Prior to the post draw I had him ranked much higher... the 20-hole won't matter so much for his running style,  but he appears to be a fairly fractious horse and was reportedly shying away from people and objects during early morning training hours this week. He will be the closest to the grandstand of 150,000 drunk, screaming fans, so good luck to him on that regard.

7. Commanding Curve- the "bubble horse" draws into the field at the last minute due to the defection of Ring Weekend and I think he has an excellent chance to pick up the pieces. He's a horse I would use underneath- possibly to round out the trifecta or superfecta. He is a bit on the slow side in comparison to the best here, but the distance won't be an issue, his come-from-behind running style should serve him well, and he broke his maiden at this track, so we know he likes the surface. Figures to be about 40 or 50-1 come post time. Bombs away!


8. Medal Count- the "other" synthetic horse in the field has been turning heads in the morning, ran a fine second to Dance With Fate in the Bluegrass and should give a good account of himself is he gets a decent trip. His closing figures are weaker than DWF though, and the surface is sill a bit of  question mark despite his decent works over it. His "wise guy" status means he also might get bet down to shorter odds than he's worth.

Man o Taz

Thanks peeptoad. Sound analysis all around.

I just do not believe Medal Counts works add up to much.

I know other horses that have trained well over a track and then run poorly in an actual race.

Has Medal Count been working in company?

I know folks say that success on Keeneland polytrack translates to Churchill Downs, but when has that last happened? Dullahan? Paddy O' Prado?

I don't see Medal Count as that quality a horse, but I could be wrong. 
"And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath upon it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse" - old Bedouin saying.

peeptoad

Quote from: Man o Taz on May 01, 2014, 05:59:33 AM
Thanks peeptoad. Sound analysis all around.

I just do not believe Medal Counts works add up to much.

I know other horses that have trained well over a track and then run poorly in an actual race.

Has Medal Count been working in company?

I know folks say that success on Keeneland polytrack translates to Churchill Downs, but when has that last happened? Dullahan? Paddy O' Prado?

I don't see Medal Count as that quality a horse, but I could be wrong.

Not sure about him working in company, just that the pundits seem to like what they see. I agree he probably not as good as Paddy or some of the other turf/synth horses. I vastly prefer Dance With Fate actually... it was close between Medal Count, General a Rod, and Ride on Curlin for that 8th spot though.

serenassong

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
Mythbusters

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